Cross-examination of O.J. Simpson (part 4)

📄 Cross-examination of O.J. Simpson (part 4) — Monday, November 25, 1996

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CIVIL\1996\NOV\25\CROSS-EXAMINATION-OF-O-J-SIMPS.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 22 of 57

◀ Recess (2) Redirect examination of O.J. Simpson (part 5) ▶

Witness: O.J. Simpson
Examiner: Daniel Petrocelli
Called by: Defense • Date: Monday, November 25, 1996 • Utterances: 642

Petrocelli systematically confronted Simpson with every category of physical evidence — blood at Bundy, Rockingham, in the Bronco, on socks — and Simpson admitted he had no explanation for any of it. The session then moved to gloves, the knit cap, a dark sweat suit, and finally the Bruno Magli shoes, where Simpson's prior deposition calling them 'ugly-ass shoes' was demolished by photographs showing him wearing them at a 1993 football game.

# 1 (Jurors resumed their respective seats.)

# 2 (Counsel displayed exhibit No. 205 diagram entitled "875 South Bundy Drive Biological Evidence.")

# 3 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) Mr. Simpson, you told the police that you did not cut yourself and had not been bleeding at Bundy as far as you could remember, correct?

# 4 A:

That's correct.

# 5 Q:

Okay.

So you are aware that blood matching your blood was found at Bundy, correct?

# 6 MR. BAKER:

Argumentative, Your Honor.

# 7 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) Are you aware of that?

# 8 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 9 A:

I was told that, yes, that -- that was the representation.

# 10 Q:

And you've seen exhibits like this one that indicate the locations where the blood drops were found, correct?

# 11 (Indicating Exhibit 205.)

# 12 A:

Correct.

# 13 Q:

And prior to the evening of June 12, 1994, you didn't bleed at Bundy at any of those locations, correct?

# 14 A:

Not to my knowledge, no.

# 15 Q:

You don't recall bleeding at Bundy at any of those spots where blood was found prior to the evening of June 12, correct?

# 16 A:

Other than the backyard possibly. Not to my knowledge.

# 17 Q:

Okay.

Sir, do you have any explanation whatsoever why blood found matching your blood -- why there was blood found matching your blood at Bundy?

# 18 A:

Represented to be my blood, no.

# 19 Q:

You have no explanation whatsoever for why each of those blood drops that was found had DNA matching your DNA, correct?

# 20 A:

Correct.

# 21 Q:

And you have no explanation whatsoever why blood and DNA matching yours were found at the rear gate at Bundy, correct?

# 22 A:

Correct.

# 23 MR. PETROCELLI:

Steve, what exhibit was the one I just had, for the record?

And which one is this when you get it.

# 24 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) I've put up a board, Mr. Simpson, entitled "Rockingham Biological Evidence."

# 25 (Exhibit 208 displayed.)

# 26 MR. FOSTER:

Previous one was 205 and this one is 208.

# 27 MR. PETROCELLI:

This is Exhibit 208 and the previous Bundy board was -- Steve?

# 28 MR. FOSTER:

205.

# 29 MR. PETROCELLI:

Exhibit 205.

# 30 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) By the way, in the earlier board I showed you, Bundy, remember the Bundy blood drops?

# 31 A:

The board you just had there?

# 32 Q:

Yes, when you said you may have bled sometime in the backyard.

Do you recall?

# 33 A:

The back driveway area, yes.

# 34 Q:

The back driveway in the alley?

# 35 A:

Yes.

# 36 Q:

You weren't there to you suggest that you had dropped those blood droplets on the pathway, were you?

# 37 A:

No.

# 38 Q:

You recognize the photos here as the interior of your house?

# 39 A:

Yes.

# 40 Q:

And now, you see -- let's take these two photos in the lower left-hand corner of the bathroom floor, right?

# 41 A:

Yes.

# 42 Q:

Okay.

Now, that's your bathroom floor, right?

# 43 A:

Yes.

# 44 Q:

You have any explanation, sir, how blood found on the bathroom floor, that matched your blood, was found there?

# 45 A:

Well, one, I don't know if they ever determined it matched my blood. That's where I shave and that's where I do all my -- do --

# 46 Q:

Did you bleed on the bathroom floor on the evening of June 12, yes or no?

# 47 A:

I don't know.

# 48 Q:

Didn't you testify previously in this -- in this courtroom, that the only time that you saw blood on the evening of June 12, 1994, for that matter any time that day, was in the kitchen?

# 49 A:

Yes.

# 50 Q:

Okay.

So you did not see any blood on the bathroom floor; is that what you're saying?

# 51 A:

That's correct.

# 52 Q:

You have no explanation for how your blood got there?

# 53 A:

If it's my blood. I don't know if they ever tested it. I would assume it could have happened any time that I shaved in my bathroom.

# 54 Q:

You would assume that?

# 55 A:

Yes.

# 56 Q:

But you don't know?

# 57 A:

Correct.

# 58 Q:

Now, you see the picture of the -- the foot of your bed, right?

# 59 A:

Yes.

# 60 Q:

And you see the rug there?

# 61 A:

Yes.

# 62 Q:

And that's your bedroom, right?

# 63 A:

Yes.

# 64 Q:

Those are your socks on the floor?

# 65 A:

That's what they tell me, yes.

# 66 Q:

They look like socks you own, right?

# 67 A:

Yes.

# 68 Q:

And do you have any explanation, sir, for how blood matching your blood got on those socks?

# 69 A:

No.

# 70 Q:

You have any explanation for how blood matching Nicole's blood got on those socks?

# 71 A:

No.

# 72 Q:

And you have any explanation for how blood matching yourself got on the foyer --

# 73 A:

No.

# 74 Q:

-- floor?

# 75 A:

No.

# 76 Q:

You -- it's your testimony that you can't tell the jury how any of that blood got there, correct?

# 77 A:

Correct.

# 78 MR. PETROCELLI:

Do you have the cable?

# 79 (Counsel displays Exhibit 2137 entitled "Blood Drops at 360 North Rockingham Avenue, June 13, 1994," containing diagram and photographs.)

# 80 MR. PETROCELLI:

What exhibit number is this board?

# 81 MR. FOSTER:

2137.

# 82 MR. PETROCELLI:

Which? 2137?

# 83 MR. FOSTER:

The picture.

# 84 MR. PETROCELLI:

On the television monitor is 2137.

Can you focus that a little bit.

# 85 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) Do you recognize that?

# 86 A:

It looks like it's the back side of my house.

# 87 Q:

Okay.

That's the area behind Kato Kaelin's room, correct?

# 88 A:

It could be, yes.

# 89 Q:

And you see this TV cable coming down the side of the wall?

# 90 A:

Yes.

# 91 Q:

Now, you have any explanation, sir, for how the blood on that cable got there?

# 92 MR. BAKER:

There's been no such -- there's been no foundation that that's blood.

# 93 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 94 MR. PETROCELLI:

We did presumptively.

# 95 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) You may answer.

# 96 A:

I never knew there was blood on that cable.

# 97 Q:

Let's assume there was blood?

# 98 A:

Yes.

# 99 Q:

You have any explanation how it got there?

# 100 A:

No.

# 101 MR. BAKER:

I object to the assumption.

# 102 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 103 A:

No.

# 104 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) By the way, on this area right opposite the air conditioner, this is the area that adjoins the Salinger property to your property, right?

# 105 A:

That's correct.

# 106 Q:

And there's a fence that goes down the whole side of this property, right?

# 107 A:

That's correct.

# 108 Q:

And this fence, when you're standing on your side of the property, is about five feet high, right?

# 109 A:

I would think so.

# 110 Q:

On the other side of the property, on the Salinger side, it goes down another two or three feet, there's an embankment that goes down into the driveway, right?

# 111 A:

I don't -- possibly. I don't ever really remember looking at it.

# 112 Q:

There's foliage above the fence as you go all the way down this south pathway?

# 113 A:

There's foliage very thick going all the way up.

# 114 Q:

There's an area right opposite the Kato Kaelin room where there's an opening in the foliage, correct?

# 115 A:

I don't believe so.

# 116 Q:

You sure?

# 117 A:

Yes.

# 118 Q:

Where there's an opening, and then there's some spikes at the top of the fence that are bent downwards; did you see that, sir?

# 119 A:

No I didn't see that.

# 120 Q:

And if a person were motivated enough he could climb from the Salinger side of the property onto your side of the property in the area opposite Kaelin's room, true?

# 121 MR. BAKER:

Argumentative, speculative.

# 122 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 123 Q:

Didn't you -- Well, we have a deposition.

I'll come back to that.

# 124 MR. PETROCELLI:

Let's look at the other board, which is that exhibit.

# 125 MR. FOSTER:

155.

# 126 MR. PETROCELLI:

155.

Let me just turn it a little bit.

# 127 (Indicating to Exhibit 155.)

# 128 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) Mr. Simpson, you see the various places where the police found blood drops on your Rockingham driveway?

# 129 A:

Yes.

# 130 Q:

And do you have any explanation for how those blood drops got there?

# 131 A:

No.

# 132 Q:

And do you have any explanation for why those blood drops matched your blood?

# 133 A:

No.

# 134 Q:

By the way, that dog sitting there in the middle of the driveway, that's Chachi, right?

# 135 A:

Yes.

# 136 Q:

Okay.

# 137 (Counsel displays Exhibit 211 entitled "Bronco Evidence.")

# 138 MR. PETROCELLI:

What subject number is this?

# 139 MR. FOSTER:

211.

# 140 MR. PETROCELLI:

This board is the "Bronco Evidence" board. Out of the way. (Indicating)

# 141 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) Do you see this board showing where blood was found in the Bronco, Mr. Simpson?

# 142 A:

Yes.

# 143 Q:

Okay.

Do you have any explanation for why blood matching yours was found near the light switch there?

# 144 A:

No.

# 145 Q:

Do you have any explanation for why blood matching Nicole's was found on the carpet in the -- on the driver side?

# 146 A:

No.

# 147 Q:

Have you any explanation for why blood matching Ron Goldman was found on the console area?

# 148 A:

No.

# 149 Q:

Or why blood matching yours was found there?

# 150 A:

No.

# 151 Q:

Or why blood matching yours was found on the inside door panel, right where you would open the door to get out --

# 152 A:

No.

# 153 Q:

-- using your left hand?

# 154 A:

No.

# 155 Q:

You do use your left hand when you exit the door, do you not?

# 156 A:

I would have, unless my arthritis was kicking up. I would imagine so, yes.

# 157 Q:

You're sitting there in your driver seat, you're getting ready to get out of car and you open the door with your left hand, do you not?

# 158 A:

Most of the time, yes.

# 159 Q:

And your left middle finger would contact the area right where that red spot is indicated, would it not, sir.

# 160 A:

It possibly could.

# 161 Q:

Right where you have the scar on your finger, true?

# 162 A:

Possibly could.

# 163 Q:

You have no explanation for any -- why any of that blood was there, true?

# 164 A:

That's correct.

# 165 Q:

Now, you don't recall bleeding in the back alleyway or back driveway of Nicole's condominium in the two or three weeks before her death, do you?

# 166 A:

No.

# 167 Q:

Okay.

You are aware that there is a receipt showing the purchase of two pairs of Aris leather light gloves by Nicole on December 18, 1990, at Bloomingdale's in New York, true?

# 168 A:

Yes.

# 169 Q:

Now, you had a place in New York, correct?

# 170 A:

Yes.

# 171 Q:

And you and Nicole would stay there during football season or she would visit with you there, right?

# 172 A:

That's right.

# 173 Q:

And the two of you would shop at Bloomingdale's and in Manhattan, your place?

# 174 A:

Yeah, among other places. Yes.

# 175 Q:

And Nicole would buy you things there, right?

# 176 A:

I don't recall ever -- her ever buying me anything --

# 177 Q:

She would by you Christmas presents, for example?

# 178 A:

She would buy Christmas presents for -- she would have a list of about 100 people, and normally she was in charge of our family to buy gifts for those hundred or so people.

# 179 Q:

That included you, right?

# 180 A:

I'm sure she bought me gifts.

I don't recall her ever buying me anything from Bloomingdale's.

# 181 Q:

And she bought you some gloves from time to time as gifts, right?

# 182 A:

Never.

# 183 MR. PETROCELLI:

And let's put on the photo, Steve.

646, 655, 660, 642,

# 184 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) That's a photograph of you, correct, Mr. Simpson?

# 185 (Indicating to Photo.)

# 186 A:

Correct.

# 187 Q:

And you're wearing some gloves there, some black gloves, right?

# 188 A:

Correct.

# 189 Q:

From looking at that picture can you tell the style and make of those gloves?

# 190 A:

No.

# 191 MR. PETROCELLI:

Let's look at the next one.

# 192 MR. FOSTER:

655.

# 193 (Exhibit 655 displayed.)

# 194 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) That's another photograph of you, right?

# 195 (Indicating 655.)

# 196 A:

Correct.

# 197 Q:

And you're wearing these gloves at football games where you're acting as an on-field talent person, right?

# 198 A:

That's correct.

# 199 Q:

Okay.

# 200 MR. PETROCELLI:

And can you close up on the gloves.

Right there.

# 201 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) Can you identify those gloves, Mr. Simpson?

# 202 A:

No.

# 203 Q:

The two pairs that we've shown you in these two pictures, these are a pair of black Aris leather light gloves, true?

# 204 A:

I wouldn't know.

# 205 Q:

Size extra large?

# 206 A:

I don't -- wouldn't know.

# 207 Q:

You -- when say you don't know, you don't know one way or the other, right?

# 208 A:

Correct.

# 209 Q:

So you -- so they could be, but you just don't know, right?

# 210 A:

Correct.

# 211 Q:

Okay.

So you're not saying they're not Aris leather light gloves, correct?

# 212 A:

Correct.

# 213 MR. FOSTER:

660.

# 214 (Exhibit 660 displayed.)

# 215 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) Same question. You can't say one way or the other what the style is, right?

# 216 A:

Correct.

# 217 Q:

So you can't say that that is not an Aris leather light, size extra large, right?

# 218 A:

Correct.

# 219 MR. PETROCELLI:

And 642 --

# 220 MR. FOSTER:

646.

# 221 MR. PETROCELLI:

646. Excuse me. Pair of brown gloves.

# 222 (Exhibit 646 displayed.)

# 223 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) You had a pair of black gloves and you had a pair of brown gloves, right?

# 224 A:

I had numerous --

# 225 Q:

Including --

# 226 A:

-- gloves, light brown --

# 227 Q:

Including black and brown?

# 228 A:

Brown and off-browns, and various gloves.

# 229 Q:

You would agree that you had pair of black and a pair of brown of a particular type of glove, right?

# 230 A:

Yes.

# 231 Q:

Okay.

And that type would be an Aris leather light glove, size extra large, correct?

# 232 A:

I wouldn't know that.

# 233 Q:

But you're not in a position to say that it wasn't such a glove, right?

# 234 A:

That's correct.

# 235 Q:

Okay.

Now, these football photos of you wearing these gloves span a period of some three years, don't they?

# 236 A:

Yeah.

What do you mean these gloves?

# 237 Q:

The pictures that I just showed you, they were starting in January, '91, was the most -- was the oldest photo and the most recent one was I believe January of 1994.

# 238 MR. BAKER:

I object to Mr. Petrocelli testifying.

# 239 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) Do you know that, sir.

# 240 THE COURT:

Look at the photos again, and if you want to see if you can identify them.

# 241 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) Talking about the time period involved.

# 242 A:

I wore gloves during that time period, but I went through a lot of gloves during that time period.

# 243 Q:

Between January 1991 and January 1994, you wore gloves of the type and color that we saw in these four photographs, true?

# 244 A:

Yes, I wore various gloves, and I went through a lot of gloves in that period of time.

# 245 Q:

Now, sir, you have been unable since the time of Nicole's death on June 12, 1994, to produce the identical gloves that you're wearing in these photos; the brown gloves and the black gloves, true?

# 246 A:

As far as I know, I've only been able to produce one brown glove that certainly wouldn't be those, or didn't appear to be these because it had a big lambskin -- was only one glove there, and all the rest of my gloves, who knows.

# 247 (Indicating to TV screen.)

# 248 Q:

We're just talking about these gloves.

# 249 A:

I don't know what those gloves are.

# 250 Q:

The gloves that you're wearing in these photographs, the ones that just I showed you, the black pair and the brown pair, you're unable to bring those gloves into this courtroom, true or untrue?

# 251 A:

Well, I can't tell if this is one of the ones that -- the lambskin interior because the outside looks just the same. I can't tell if that's those gloves or not.

# 252 Q:

You have not brought these gloves to this courtroom, true, sir?

# 253 A:

Well, there's one glove. You guys have it.

# 254 Q:

And it is not the same glove?

# 255 A:

I couldn't tell.

# 256 Q:

Okay.

# 257 A:

I couldn't tell.

# 258 Q:

And other than this one pair of gloves that you say you've shown us --

# 259 A:

Not one pair. It's one glove.

# 260 Q:

One single glove?

# 261 A:

Yes.

# 262 Q:

You're unable to bring, and have been unable to bring since Nicole's death, to the courtroom the identical gloves that you were actually wearing in these photographs, correct?

# 263 A:

Unless that one glove is one of these gloves, 'cause I can't tell the difference on the outside. I wouldn't be able to tell.

# 264 Q:

Okay.

And we asked you numerous times in the course of this case to produce gloves that were Aris leather light extra large gloves, brown and black, and you have been unable to produce gloves matching that description, correct?

# 265 A:

The police took all my gloves before I got home so I haven't been able to bring any gloves.

# 266 Q:

You're saying the police took those gloves; is that what you're -- what you're saying?

# 267 A:

I'm saying I've been unable to bring any gloves in.

# 268 Q:

You don't know where those gloves are, do you, sir?

# 269 A:

I don't know where the black ones are, the black ones or any of the gloves at this time.

# 270 Q:

Let's just focus on these gloves.

You do not know where those brown gloves are, that you are wearing in that photograph, correct?

# 271 A:

As I said --

# 272 Q:

Can you answer that yes or no?

# 273 A:

I'm attempting to answer it, sir.

As I said, unless the one glove that you guys have somewhere is this particular glove, that would be one of the two gloves, other than that I would say no.

# 274 (Indicating to Exhibit 646.)

# 275 Q:

I will represent to you and the Court, and I'm sure your counsel will agree, that the one glove that you gave to us was not an Aris leather light glove.

# 276 A:

Well, I never gave you a glove.

# 277 Q:

The one glove you showed us, or whatever, the single glove your talking about, I will represent to you, that it is not an Aris leather light glove.

Okay?

# 278 A:

Okay.

# 279 Q:

So we can forget about that glove.

# 280 A:

Okay.

# 281 MR. BAKER:

There's argumentative, Your Honor.

# 282 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 283 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) I want to talk about this case.

I would like you to tell us where that glove is?

Where are those two gloves you're wearing on your hands in that photograph?

# 284 A:

I've answered that I wouldn't know a leather light glove from another glove. They all look the same to me. If that one glove is one of these two gloves, that's one of them. Other than that I wouldn't be able to tell you where any of the gloves are.

# 285 Q:

Forget that single glove, okay?

# 286 A:

Yes.

# 287 Q:

Tell me where those gloves are?

# 288 A:

I can only answer it the way --

# 289 MR. BAKER:

Asked and answered about four times.

# 290 MR. PETROCELLI:

He keeps bringing up this other glove and it's not the glove.

# 291 THE COURT:

Excuse me.

# 292 MR. PETROCELLI:

It's been so stipulated.

# 293 THE COURT:

Overruled.

You may answer.

# 294 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) Please answer the question.

# 295 A:

That's the best --

# 296 Q:

Where are the gloves you're wearing in the photograph?

# 297 A:

I have no idea.

# 298 Q:

You have no idea?

# 299 A:

No.

# 300 Q:

None?

# 301 A:

I don't know where any of my gloves are.

# 302 Q:

Those gloves?

# 303 A:

Those gloves or any of my gloves.

# 304 Q:

And you are aware, sir, that gloves matching the description of those gloves that you are wearing were found; one at Bundy, one at Rockingham?

# 305 A:

The brown pair they say were brown gloves, and I've been unable to find the black gloves either.

# 306 Q:

You're aware that gloves matching the description of the ones you are wearing were found; one at Bundy, one at Rockingham?

# 307 A:

Yes.

# 308 Q:

Those are the gloves used by the killer, you're aware of that?

# 309 A:

I'm not aware of that, no.

# 310 Q:

You're not aware of that?

# 311 A:

No.

# 312 Q:

Now, you also are aware that there was a knit cap found at the Bundy crime scene?

# 313 A:

Yes.

# 314 Q:

A dark knit cap?

# 315 A:

Yes.

# 316 Q:

Now, you have knit caps just like that one, don't you, sir?

# 317 A:

I don't know.

# 318 MR. PETROCELLI:

Can you put the photo up of the knit cap.

# 319 (Exhibit 2218 displayed.)

# 320 THE REPORTER:

What exhibit is that?

# 321 MR. FOSTER:

Next in order, 2218.

# 322 MR. PETROCELLI:

2218.

Little more of a close-up, Steve.

# 323 (The instrument herein described as a photograph of a dark knit cap with the number 66 tag on it was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2218.)

# 324 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) That's one of your knit caps?

# 325 A:

I don't know.

# 326 Q:

You had knit caps like that in your house that you used for various purposes including skiing, correct?

# 327 A:

In the past, when I used to ski, I've had numerous ski outfits, and I'm sure I've had a blue or a black knit cap before, yes.

# 328 Q:

You owned that cap, the one depicted in the picture on the TV screen, as of June 12, 1994, correct?

# 329 A:

I don't know what knit cap this is.

# 330 Q:

You owned caps like that as of June 12, 1994, correct?

# 331 A:

I could have, but I don't know because I haven't been skiing in a while, so I don't know where -- I wouldn't --

# 332 Q:

Is it your belief that that cap was acquired by you?

# 333 MR. BAKER:

Let him finish the answer, please.

# 334 A:

I wouldn't know. I haven't seen my ski clothes in so long, I wouldn't know.

# 335 Q:

So whatever knit caps you had as of June 1, 1994 would be the ones that were made available to the police when they searched, right?

# 336 A:

Yes.

# 337 Q:

If it included that knit cap on the television screen, you wouldn't dispute that, right?

# 338 A:

Correct.

# 339 Q:

Okay.

Now, you recall -- well, withdrawn.

Were you or were you not wearing a dark sweat suit at any time on the evening of June 12?

# 340 A:

I was not.

# 341 Q:

Now, I asked you at your deposition whether you owned any dark sweat suit in June of 1994, and you said you did not, do you remember that?

# 342 A:

Yes.

# 343 Q:

Okay.

# 344 MR. PETROCELLI:

You have the photo, Steve. Put it up.

# 345 (Exhibit 2219 displayed.)

# 346 Q:

You remember this photo, Mr. Simpson, don't you?

# 347 A:

No.

# 348 Q:

It's a dark sweat suit that you're wearing?

# 349 A:

No, I don't remember the photo.

# 350 Q:

You remember shooting a video, an exercise video put out by Playboy in May, late May, 1994?

# 351 A:

Yes.

# 352 Q:

May 25, 26, 27?

# 353 A:

Yes.

# 354 Q:

A couple weeks before Nicole's death, right?

# 355 A:

Yes.

# 356 Q:

And that's you wearing a dark sweat suit, right?

# 357 A:

If it is, it's their clothes.

# 358 Q:

They provided the wardrobe to you, right?

# 359 A:

Yes.

# 360 Q:

Okay.

THE COURT REPORTER: May I have a number on that, please?

# 361 MR. FOSTER:

It's similar to the photograph in 770.

# 362 MR. PETROCELLI:

It's 2219.

# 363 (The instrument herein described as a photograph of Mr. Simpson wearing a black outfit was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2219.)

# 364 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) You know the gentleman next to you, right? He did the video with you?

# 365 A:

Yes.

# 366 MR. PETROCELLI:

Why don't you get a close-up on the dark sweatpants. Back up.

# 367 (Indicating to Elmo screen.)

# 368 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) And that was one of the items that you wore in the shooting of that video, right?

# 369 A:

Possibly.

# 370 Q:

You're wearing it, aren't you?

# 371 A:

Yes.

Can I see that other picture then again.

# 372 MR. PETROCELLI:

Put it on.

# 373 MR. FOSTER:

This is 2220.

# 374 (The instrument herein referred to as Photo of O.J. Simpson in White shirt and dark pants was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2220.)

# 375 (Exhibit 2220 displayed.)

# 376 THE COURT:

Which one is this one?

# 377 MR. FOSTER:

2219.

# 378 MR. PETROCELLI:

2219 is this picture. The second picture is 2220.

# 379 Q:

This sweat suit outfit, you can't produce it either?

# 380 A:

It wasn't mine.

# 381 Q:

You knew it was -- it was available?

# 382 A:

To wear during the shoot.

# 383 Q:

You didn't have to give it back, Mr. Simpson, did you?

# 384 A:

If I would have asked for it I'm pretty sure he would have given it to me. But I didn't ask for it.

# 385 (Referring to Exhibit 2219.)

# 386 Q:

There was a wardrobe person assigned for this video?

# 387 A:

Yes.

# 388 Q:

She provided to you the wardrobe, right?

# 389 A:

I don't recall if it was a girl or guy.

# 390 Q:

Yeah, her name is Leslie Gardner, correct?

# 391 A:

I don't recall.

# 392 Q:

And Leslie Gardner would certainly not know whether you kept the sweat suit or whether you gave it back to her, would she not?

# 393 MR. BAKER:

I object.

# 394 O.J. SIMPSON:

I think so.

# 395 MR. BAKER:

Calls for speculation, sheer speculation on the part of this witness who he doesn't even know the name --

# 396 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 397 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) That was part of her duties to provide the wardrobe to you, right?

# 398 A:

I don't recall her, but they had a wardrobe person, yes.

# 399 Q:

Whoever the person is?

# 400 A:

Yes.

# 401 Q:

You dealt with that person, right?

# 402 A:

I would assume so.

# 403 Q:

And they gave you the clothing you wore, correct?

# 404 A:

They provided it the day that we worked out there for the video.

# 405 Q:

If it returned you would have given it back to that person?

# 406 A:

I never returned it because I never took it. I tried it -- I did it and they did whatever they did with it.

# 407 Q:

And your testimony is that you never saw it again, right?

# 408 A:

That's correct.

# 409 Q:

Okay.

# 410 MR. PETROCELLI:

We have to get the other board.

# 411 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) So you're not able -- you were not able as of June 12, 1994, to produce any dark sweat suit, correct?

# 412 A:

I didn't have any.

# 413 Q:

Not a single one?

# 414 A:

I didn't have any.

# 415 Q:

Correct?

# 416 A:

That's correct.

# 417 Q:

You saw those Bruno Magli shoes that were discussed in court, right?

# 418 A:

Yes.

# 419 Q:

And you heard the testimony that those Bruno Magli shoes, size 12, left the footprint at Bundy, right?

# 420 A:

Yes.

# 421 Q:

And you wear size 12, right?

# 422 A:

At times, yeah, among other shoes. Yes, anywhere from 11, 12, 13.

# 423 Q:

Including size 12?

# 424 A:

That's right.

# 425 Q:

Those Reeboks are size 12?

# 426 A:

I don't know.

# 427 Q:

The ones you gave to Lange?

# 428 A:

I don't know. But they probably were.

# 429 Q:

They probably were?

# 430 A:

They could have been.

# 431 Q:

Okay. Now, your deposition was taken in this case in January of 1996, sir?

# 432 A:

I don't know. I don't recall.

# 433 Q:

You do recall, though, that your deposition was taken at a time before the photograph of you wearing those shoes appeared in the National Enquirer, sometime in March or April, correct?

# 434 A:

I don't recall that, no.

# 435 Q:

You wouldn't dispute that if the dates bore that out, right?

# 436 A:

No.

# 437 Q:

Okay.

And you recall that I asked you if you ever owned the Bruno Magli shoes, Bruno Magli shoes, size 12, the type that you were shown in court, as of June 12, 1994?

Do you recall what your answer was?

# 438 A:

Yes.

# 439 Q:

Okay.

You testified that you would --

# 440 MR. BAKER:

Page and line, please.

# 441 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) 1305. You testified at your deposition that you, quote,

# 442 MR. BLASIER:

Line, please.

# 443 MR. GELBLUM:

10.

# 444 MR. PETROCELLI:

Got it, Mr. Baker?

# 445 MR. BLASIER:

Not yet.

# 446 MR. PETROCELLI:

Let me know when you have it.

# 447 MR. BAKER:

Go ahead.

# 448 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) I'll read it.

Page 1305, starting at line 10:

"Q. Did you ever buy shoes that you knew were Bruno Magli shoes?

"A. No.

"Q. How do you know that?

"A. Because I know. If Bruno Magli makes shoes that look like the shoes that he had in court that are involved in this case, I would have never owned those ugly-ass shoes.

"Q. You thought those were ugly-ass shoes?

"A. Yes.

"Q. Why were they ugly-ass shoes?

"A. Because in my mind, they were.

"Q. What about them was ugly, Mr. Simpson?

"A. The look of them, the style."

Do you recall giving that testimony?

# 449 A:

Yes.

And the color of them.

# 450 Q:

Now, after that deposition testimony, this picture of you appeared in the National Enquirer, right?

# 451 A:

Yes.

# 452 Q:

And that is you, Mr. Simpson, is it not?

# 453 A:

It looks like me.

# 454 Q:

And you did attend a football game at Rich Stadium in Orchard Park, New York, on September 26, 1993, correct?

# 455 A:

I could have, yes.

# 456 Q:

What do you mean, you could have?

Did you or did you not?

# 457 A:

I don't know.

# 458 Q:

Do you remember being there?

# 459 A:

I don't know the dates, but I certainly attended a lot of games in Buffalo.

# 460 Q:

Well, how's this for refreshing your recollection? The last time that you saw the Bills play the Dolphins at Rich Stadium?

# 461 A:

I don't recall when that was.

# 462 Q:

That would have been that game, correct?

# 463 A:

I went to two or three games, sometimes, a week, so I wouldn't know.

# 464 Q:

There's two in a season; there's one at Buffalo, there's one at Miami. That was the last season before Nicole's death that you did football games, true?

# 465 A:

If you say that is that game, I'll accept that. I'm just --.

# 466 Q:

Thank you.

# 467 A:

-- telling you, I don't remember what dates what games were played.

# 468 Q:

Okay.

And you don't remember much about the games, sir?

# 469 A:

No, not really.

# 470 Q:

You know who won?

# 471 A:

I hope Buffalo.

# 472 Q:

But you don't remember, do you?

# 473 A:

No.

# 474 Q:

And your routine was to get there before the game and, you know, do some pregame interviews and that sort of thing?

# 475 A:

Yes.

# 476 Q:

And you recognize what part of the stadium you're walking in there, sir?

# 477 A:

It appears to be the end zone.

# 478 MR. PETROCELLI:

By the way, what exhibit number is this board?

# 479 MR. FOSTER:

2211.

# 480 MR. PETROCELLI:

For the record, we have Exhibit 2211.

# 481 (Exhibit 2211 displayed.)

# 482 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) Now, Mr. Simpson you are wearing Bruno Magli shoes, size 12, in that photograph?

# 483 A:

That photograph depicts that, but I don't -- I wouldn't -- wasn't wearing Bruno Magli shoes.

# 484 Q:

Well, are you saying those are not Bruno Magli shoes?

# 485 A:

They look like Bruno Magli shoes, yes.

# 486 Q:

But you're not wearing them; is that what you're saying?

# 487 A:

I'm -- that's what I'm saying.

# 488 Q:

How can that be, sir?

# 489 A:

I don't know.

I saw a picture of Mark Fuhrman and I playing golf together, and I know I never, ever played golf with him, either.

KEY QUOTE

# 490 Q:

What does this have to do with Mark Fuhrman?

# 491 A:

I don't know.

You asked me how can that be. I'm no expert on pictures, but I saw a picture of Mark Fuhrman and me playing golf, together in a golf cart.

# 492 Q:

What you're saying to the jury is, that picture is a fraud?

# 493 A:

I believe so, yes.

# 494 Q:

What do you mean, you believe so. Is it or is it not?

# 495 A:

I would say it is.

# 496 MR. BAKER:

I would object. That's argumentative. He indicated he doesn't have the expertise.

# 497 THE COURT:

Overruled.

He may state his opinion.

# 498 MR. BAKER:

That's fine. I have no objection.

# 499 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) State your opinion. Is it or is it not a fraud?

# 500 A:

My opinion is that it is a fraud.

# 501 Q:

Okay.

What part of that picture is fraudulent?

# 502 A:

I couldn't tell you exactly. But anything that below my -- I have -- I had a tie sort of like that tie, I know.

As I've told you in a deposition, the coat, I can't really tell. I've worn all kinds of sports coats. It looks like a nice sports coat. The collar on the shirt is definitely a collar that I've had shirts that look like that.

The belt, I can't really tell.

The pants look a little big on me.

And the shoes, I don't know, weren't my shoes.

# 503 Q:

You're absolutely positive about the shoes?

# 504 A:

I'm pretty sure.

# 505 Q:

Pretty sure?

# 506 A:

Well, I am sure.

# 507 Q:

There is no doubt in your mind, is there, sir?

# 508 A:

No, there's not.

# 509 Q:

There's no doubt?

# 510 A:

I said no.

# 511 Q:

None, right?

# 512 A:

For the third time, no.

# 513 Q:

And give us your definitive opinion: Are those pants yours or not? Yes or no?

# 514 A:

I couldn't tell you. They're gray pants. They look big on whoever that might be.

# 515 Q:

Is your answer you can't tell us?

# 516 A:

I can't tell you.

# 517 Q:

They could be your gray pants?

# 518 A:

I own gray pants, and I've owned pants with cuffs, yes.

# 519 Q:

You have any reason to believe those pants are not yours?

# 520 A:

Only the shoes lead me to believe that those are not my pants.

# 521 Q:

Forget the shoes focusing on the pants, are the pants yours?

# 522 A:

I don't know.

# 523 Q:

You don't know?

# 524 A:

They look a little big in the legs.

# 525 Q:

Let's go to the belt.

Is the belt yours?

# 526 A:

I can't tell.

# 527 Q:

You don't know?

# 528 A:

I can't tell.

# 529 Q:

Is the jacket yours?

# 530 A:

I mean, I've owned plenty of -- if -- I can't tell from here if it's a double-breast or single-breast blue or black jacket. I've owned plenty of them, yes.

# 531 Q:

Is the jacket yours?

# 532 A:

I don't know.

# 533 Q:

You don't know?

# 534 A:

It looks like it could be my jacket.

# 535 Q:

You're saying you can't tell if that's your jacket or not?

# 536 A:

It looks like that's my jacket, yes.

# 537 Q:

Is that your opinion, that it is your jacket?

# 538 A:

That would be my opinion, yes.

# 539 Q:

And the tie?

# 540 A:

I know I had a tie that looked like that, yes.

# 541 Q:

And that tie is yours, right?

# 542 A:

I had a tie like that, so I would say yes.

# 543 Q:

And the white shirt. Is that your white shirt?

# 544 A:

By the collar of the shirt, I knew I had shirts that looked like that, yes.

# 545 Q:

And the hands and the upper torso, that's all you, right?

# 546 A:

Yeah. Yes, I would say so.

# 547 Q:

So it's basically the shoes that you question, right?

# 548 A:

Yes. The pants somewhat, too.

# 549 MR. PETROCELLI:

Do we have the video?

Put it on.

We've got to get the other pictures up.

# 550 (The instrument herein referred to as a videotape depicting Mr. Simpson wearing a black jacket was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2221.)

# 551 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2221 was played in open court.)

# 552 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) Now, there's a --

# 553 MR. PETROCELLI:

What exhibit number is that?

# 554 MR. MEDVENE:

Next in order.

# 555 THE CLERK:

2221.

# 556 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) Is that the same jacket, tie, and shirt, Mr. Simpson?

# 557 A:

It looks the same, yes.

# 558 Q:

Okay.

And that's -- you don't have any reason to think that those are not your items that you're wearing there, is there?

# 559 A:

From what I could see.

# 560 Q:

Is that where it ends?

# 561 A:

Yes. I'm trying to see the colors.

Yeah, that still looks like --

# 562 Q:

And that's TV footage from the same game, right?

# 563 A:

I would assume so, yes.

# 564 MR. PETROCELLI:

One second.

Where are the other pictures, the other Scull pictures?

If you've got the rest of the video, put it on.

# 565 (Videotape played in open court.)

# 566 MR. PETROCELLI:

Same exhibit. This is the same game. Now, stop it there.

# 567 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) Now, you see you're wearing these same belt and gray pants and shirt there, Mr. Simpson?

# 568 A:

I can't really tell, but they are gray pants, and I can't really tell what the belt is.

# 569 Q:

You can make out the tie there, can't you?

# 570 A:

Yes.

# 571 Q:

Same tie, same shirt, right?

# 572 A:

That's right.

# 573 Q:

You can see that the pants there are gray, can you?

# 574 MR. PETROCELLI:

You can't blow that up, can you, Steve?

We finally found something you can't do?

# 575 A:

I would say that the pants were gray pants, yeah.

# 576 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) So, basically everything is there. Is it -- you can see it there, right?

# 577 A:

Yes.

# 578 Q:

Same belt, same pants, same everything, right?

# 579 A:

No. The coat is obviously a raincoat.

# 580 Q:

Well, that's a different coat you put on, right?

# 581 A:

Yes.

# 582 Q:

So, that change your mind a little bit on the pants, make you sure that those pants were genuine?

# 583 A:

No.

# 584 Q:

That the -- that the pants you're wearing here are the same pants depicted here?

# 585 A:

No, that didn't change my mind.

# 586 Q:

Doesn't change your mind, seeing it on the video?

# 587 A:

No. I'm sure I wore gray pants that day because I normally wear gray pants.

# 588 Q:

Do you think the video is a fraud too?

# 589 A:

Not at all.

# 590 Q:

Okay.

# 591 MR. PETROCELLI:

Put that picture on.

What exhibit number is this, Steve?

# 592 MR. FOSTER:

1918..

# 593 MR. GELBLUM:

1918.

# 594 MR. PETROCELLI:

1918.

# 595 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1918 displayed on the TV screen.)

# 596 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) And that's a picture of you interviewing Keith Byers?

# 597 A:

It appears to be, yes.

# 598 Q:

Who was then on the Miami Dolphins?

# 599 A:

That's correct.

# 600 Q:

And again, that's before game time, right?

# 601 A:

I don't know. Could have been after.

# 602 Q:

And there you're wearing the same outfit depicted in the picture of you walking through the end zone, right?

# 603 A:

From the waist up, yes.

# 604 Q:

The same tie, shirt, and jacket?

# 605 A:

Appears to be, yes.

# 606 Q:

Now, is it your opinion that picture's a fraud?

# 607 A:

Well --

# 608 Q:

Yes or no?

# 609 A:

I would say no.

# 610 Q:

Not a fraud?

# 611 A:

Yes.

# 612 MR. PETROCELLI:

Now, you got the next one.

# 613 (The instrument herein referred to as Photograph of Mr. Simpson standing by himself was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 1916.)

# 614 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1916 displayed on the TV screen.)

# 615 MR. PETROCELLI:

Next exhibit is Exhibit 1916.

# 616 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) Do you recognize that photograph, right?

# 617 A:

Yes.

# 618 Q:

And that's a photograph of you doing a shot, again, before the game?

# 619 A:

Yes.

# 620 Q:

Later on, it got cold and little rainy, and you put on the raincoat, right?

# 621 A:

Well it rained before and after and during, so I had it on; I took it off; I had it on; I took it off.

# 622 Q:

Now, the jacket, the tie, the shirt, and the pants, they are the same as the ones in the photograph of you walking in the end zone, right?

# 623 A:

That's correct.

# 624 MR. PETROCELLI:

And is this 1916, Steve?

# 625 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) Is it your opinion that that photograph, 1916, is a fraud?

# 626 A:

Not my opinion, no.

# 627 Q:

It's January, right?

# 628 A:

I would assume so, yes.

# 629 MR. PETROCELLI:

Okay. You can take it off.

# 630 Q:

You're not able to produce those shoes in court that you're wearing in that photograph, are you?

# 631 MR. BAKER:

Object, Your Honor. That is depicted in the photograph; you'll go over that.

# 632 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 633 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) You can answer.

You cannot bring to this courtroom the shoes depicted in that photograph?

# 634 A:

The shoes depicted in this photograph, no.

# 635 Q:

And by the way, you still think those shoes are ugly-ass shoes that you're wearing there?

# 636 A:

Not as ugly as the ones in the courtroom.

I don't think those are attractive shoes, no.

KEY QUOTE

# 637 MR. PETROCELLI:

Okay.

You can take it -- take the board in, too, Steve.

# 638 (Exhibit board is removed.)

# 639 MR. PETROCELLI:

I've got one area left. Like to take a short break before, Your Honor?

# 640 THE COURT:

Right now?

# 641 MR. PETROCELLI:

Yeah, if that would be okay.

# 642 THE COURT:

All right. Ten minutes, ladies and gentlemen.

Temperature

devastating

Key Quotes (4)

O.J. Simpson

Because I know. If Bruno Magli makes shoes that look like the shoes that he had in court that are involved in this case, I would have never owned those ugly-ass shoes.

Deposition testimony read back by Petrocelli, immediately followed by photographs proving Simpson wore identical shoes — one of the most damaging impeachments of the trial.

O.J. Simpson

I saw a picture of Mark Fuhrman and I playing golf together, and I know I never, ever played golf with him, either.

Simpson's attempt to deflect the shoe photo by claiming photos can be fabricated — a transparently desperate response that likely hurt his credibility.

O.J. Simpson

Not as ugly as the ones in the courtroom.

Simpson still dismissing the Bruno Magli shoes even after being shown photographs of himself wearing them — a defiant response that underscored his credibility problem.

O.J. Simpson

Correct.

Repeated verbatim in response to Petrocelli's litany of blood questions — Simpson had no explanation for blood matching his DNA at Bundy, Rockingham, the Bronco, his socks, or his bathroom floor.

Evidence (17)

Exhibit 205

Diagram of 875 South Bundy Drive showing locations of biological evidence / blood drops

displayed, discussed

Exhibit 208

Rockingham Biological Evidence board

displayed, discussed

Exhibit 2137

Photograph and diagram of blood drops at 360 North Rockingham Avenue, June 13, 1994, including TV cable behind Kato Kaelin's room

displayed, discussed

Exhibit 155

Blood drops on Rockingham driveway, including photo of dog Chachi

displayed, discussed

Exhibit 211

Bronco Evidence board showing locations of blood matching Simpson, Nicole Brown Simpson, and Ron Goldman

displayed, discussed

Exhibit 646

Photograph of Simpson wearing brown gloves

displayed, discussed — used to establish Simpson cannot produce matching gloves

+ 11 more

Notable Exchanges (4)

Daniel Petrocelli•O.J. Simpson

Petrocelli read back Simpson's deposition calling Bruno Magli shoes 'ugly-ass shoes,' then immediately showed Simpson photographs of himself wearing them. Simpson claimed the photo was fraudulent, invoking a fabricated Fuhrman golf photo as precedent.

devastating

Daniel Petrocelli•O.J. Simpson

Rapid-fire blood evidence questioning: Petrocelli asked whether Simpson had any explanation for blood matching his DNA at each location — Bundy pathway, rear gate, bathroom floor, bedroom socks, foyer, Rockingham driveway, Bronco. Simpson answered 'No' or 'Correct' to each.

clinical and devastating

Daniel Petrocelli•O.J. Simpson

Petrocelli walked Simpson through the shoe photograph piece by piece — tie, shirt, jacket, belt, pants — getting Simpson to authenticate each item, until only the shoes remained in dispute. Simpson conceded everything from the ankles up was his.

methodical and revealing

Daniel Petrocelli•O.J. Simpson

Glove confrontation: Petrocelli established Simpson wore Aris leather light gloves in photographs spanning 1991–1994, could not produce those gloves, and was aware gloves matching that description were found one at Bundy and one at Rockingham.

strategic

Light Moments (3)

Daniel Petrocelli

Petrocelli, struggling to get the video to zoom in, quipped to his tech assistant: 'We finally found something you can't do?'

O.J. Simpson

Simpson, asked if he still thought the Bruno Magli shoes were ugly, replied: 'Not as ugly as the ones in the courtroom. I don't think those are attractive shoes, no.'

O.J. Simpson

When Petrocelli asked about the Buffalo Bills game: 'You know who won?' Simpson replied: 'I hope Buffalo.'

Credibility Attacks (4)

⚔ O.J. Simpson

prior inconsistent statement

Petrocelli read Simpson's deposition denying he ever owned Bruno Magli shoes and calling them 'ugly-ass shoes,' then immediately confronted him with multiple photographs and video showing him wearing identical shoes at a September 1993 football game.

⚔ O.J. Simpson

prior inconsistent statement

Simpson claimed at deposition he owned no dark sweat suit; Petrocelli showed photographs of Simpson wearing a dark sweat suit in a Playboy exercise video shot in late May 1994, weeks before the murders.

⚔ O.J. Simpson

inability to produce evidence

Simpson could not produce the gloves depicted in photographs spanning 1991–1994, could not produce the dark sweat suit, and could not produce the Bruno Magli shoes — creating a pattern of missing items correlated with the physical evidence.

⚔ O.J. Simpson

admission against interest

Simpson admitted he had no explanation whatsoever for blood matching his DNA found at Bundy, Rockingham, the Bronco, his socks, his bathroom floor, or the Bundy rear gate.

Witness Demeanor

Simpson repeatedly answered 'Correct' and 'No' in a flat pattern during blood evidence questioning, offering no alternative theory.

Simpson qualified nearly every denial about the Bruno Magli shoes with hedging ('pretty sure,' 'I believe so'), then was pushed to give definitive answers.

Simpson became slightly agitated during glove questioning, correcting Petrocelli ('Not one pair. It's one glove.') and repeatedly deflecting with the unexplained single glove.

Simpson volunteered the Mark Fuhrman golf photo comparison unprompted — suggesting defensiveness under the photograph evidence.

Objections

11 objections (2 sustained, 9 overruled)

Proceeding 8391 • 642 utterances • Defense witness

Civil Trial

Department 103