Redirect examination of William Bodziak (part 2) (1 of 2)

📄 Redirect examination of William Bodziak (part 2) (1 of 2) — Thursday, November 21, 1996

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CIVIL\1996\NOV\21\REDIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-WILLIA.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 20 of 57

◀ Exhibit numbering correction Redirect examination of William Bodziak (part 1) ▶

Witness: William Bodziak
Examiner: Edward Medvene
Called by: Plaintiff • Date: Thursday, November 21, 1996 • Utterances: 197

Defense attorney P. Baker cross-examined FBI shoe print analyst William Bodziak, focusing on the methodology of a 'similar photograph' Bodziak created to compare with Harry Scull's photograph showing OJ Simpson's shoes. Baker used math and a physical demonstration to show that Bodziak's lab photo used drastically different conditions than the Scull photo (camera 2-3 inches vs. 5 feet high, ~3 feet vs. 75 feet distance), arguing the comparison was scientifically invalid. Baker also highlighted that LAPD never provided Bodziak with soil impressions he had requested from the crime scene.

# 1 Q:

(BY MR. P. BAKER) Mr. Bodziak, you've testified in federal court hundreds of times, haven't you?

# 2 A:

Probably in excess of a hundred, yes.

# 3 Q:

You know -- in federal court, you know you're not to be talking to counsel at breaks?

# 4 A:

I don't know that.

# 5 MR. MEDVENE:

Objection, argumentative.

# 6 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 7 Q:

(BY MR. P. BAKER) During the break you had a chance to talk to Mr. Medvene?

# 8 A:

There was some talk between us.

# 9 Q:

During that conversation you had with Mr. Medvene, you discussed questions you wanted him to ask you on the redirect examination, right?

# 10 A:

No, he was asking me questions.

# 11 Q:

All right. You think that was neutral, unbiased to walk over to --

# 12 A:

I'm his witness. He's asking me questions.

# 13 Q:

You're his witness?

# 14 A:

I could be your witness. Should, too.

KEY QUOTE

# 15 Q:

You didn't come over and talk to me, Mr. Bodziak?

# 16 A:

You didn't ask me.

# 17 Q:

All right.

Now, during the criminal case, you testified as to another shoe print that wasn't identified on your board; isn't that true?

# 18 A:

Which are you specifically talking about?

# 19 Q:

Do you recall testifying that there was a shoe print on Nicole Brown Simpson's dress, Item 86?

# 20 A:

That's right.

# 21 Q:

You created an overlay?

# 22 A:

That's correct.

# 23 Q:

And you -- during the 30 some-odd hours you had conversations with Mr. Medvene, he told you, did he not, that the coroner who did the autopsy believes that the bruise on her back was from postmortem settlement, lividity?

# 24 MR. MEDVENE:

Object. Outside the scope; it misstates the record.

MR. P. BAKER: I've got his deposition.

# 25 THE COURT:

Sustain it for irrelevance.

MR. P. BAKER: Goes to his credibility.

# 26 THE COURT:

His credibility may be attacked on material things.

# 27 MR. BAKER:

On what?

# 28 THE COURT:

I'll sustain my objection.

MR. P. BAKER: Can I approach real quickly?

# 29 THE COURT:

No.

MR. P. BAKER: Okay.

# 30 Q:

(BY MR. P. BAKER) What's a latent footprint, Mr. Bodziak?

# 31 A:

One that is not visible to the naked eye.

# 32 Q:

And as a shoe print analyst, you can use oblique light to pick up latent shoe prints, can you not?

# 33 A:

That's very possible, yes.

# 34 Q:

And -- in other words, you can take high-powered lighting, put it down at a crime scene, and observe shoe prints that are not visible to the naked eye, correct?

# 35 A:

That's correct.

# 36 Q:

The LAPD didn't do that, did they?

# 37 A:

I have no personal knowledge of what they did.

# 38 Q:

You asked the LAPD for soil impressions at the crime scene, didn't you?

# 39 A:

It was my job to ask them for all impressions that were photographed that were shoe impressions, regardless of whether they were sole or otherwise, photographs.

# 40 Q:

And they never provided you any soil impressions, did they?

# 41 A:

No, they did not.

# 42 Q:

Okay. And if Mr. Lange testified in court that a hole at the northeast corner of the caged-in area was from Mr. Goldman struggling, those soil impressions would have been very relevant to your analysis?

# 43 MR. MEDVENE:

Objection, outside the scope.

# 44 THE COURT:

Sustained.

MR. P. BAKER: What board is this?

# 45 MR. MEDVENE:

2211.

# 46 Q:

(BY MR. P. BAKER) You assisted in making this board, 2211, correct?

# 47 A:

That's correct.

# 48 Q:

And this is a copy of the photograph you received from Harry Scull and his attorney, the upper left photograph?

# 49 A:

It's a photographic enlargement that was submitted to me by Mr. Medvene.

# 50 Q:

Mr. Medvene sent you this photograph?

# 51 A:

Yes.

# 52 Q:

And you made the contact sheets off the photograph Mr. Medvene sent you?

# 53 A:

No, that was made from the negative that Mr. Scull provided.

# 54 Q:

All right.

# 55 A:

As well as other photographs.

# 56 Q:

Okay. And this is kind of -- you zoom in on the shoe print on the photograph of Mr. Scull's, right?

# 57 A:

Number 3 was taken directly from the negative that Mr. Scull provided.

# 58 Q:

Number 6 is a left-handed -- is it enlargements of the left shoe?

# 59 A:

That's correct.

# 60 Q:

Number 7 is a -- is a photograph you did in your laboratory, right?

# 61 A:

That's correct.

# 62 Q:

And you tried to do a similar photograph as to the Harry Scull photograph, right?

# 63 A:

That's correct.

# 64 Q:

Okay.

And you met with Mr. Scull and his attorney, right?

# 65 A:

That's correct.

# 66 Q:

That was -- would have been in Washington, D.C.?

# 67 A:

That's correct.

# 68 Q:

You asked Mr. Scull some questions, correct?

# 69 A:

That's correct.

# 70 Q:

And you learned that Mr. Scull took the photograph from five feet in height, right?

# 71 MR. MEDVENE:

Objection, hearsay.

# 72 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 73 A:

He stated to me it was from a monopod that was approximately five feet in height.

# 74 Q:

And I'm not a tall guy, so it's a little bit around my neck?

# 75 A:

Yes.

# 76 Q:

Okay.

And Mr. Scull told you that the photograph was taken 25 yards away approximately, 75 feet, right?

# 77 A:

That's correct.

# 78 Q:

Mr. Scull told you it was sunny on that day, correct?

# 79 A:

That's correct.

# 80 MR. MEDVENE:

Your Honor, we weren't able to get into this area. We tried to get in.

# 81 THE COURT:

You tried to get into contact prints and how those were made.

This is proper cross-examination because this witness is being asked questions on things that this witness used to make his evaluation and form his opinions.

# 82 MR. MEDVENE:

All right, Your Honor.

# 83 Q:

(BY MR. P. BAKER) You gave --

# 84 THE COURT:

However, if you do persist in asking questions about the photograph, you may open the door with regards to the contact prints. So I just give you fair warning.

MR. P. BAKER: Okay.

# 85 Q:

(BY MR. P. BAKER) I'm -- just let me be clear, Mr. Bodziak. I'm just asking you questions about the photograph, the similar photograph you took under your direction, that you showed the jury, right?

# 86 A:

That's correct.

# 87 Q:

Okay.

And so when you did -- and let me get the exact -- you also skimmed his deposition, right, Mr. Scull's deposition?

# 88 A:

Yes.

# 89 Q:

And you did that to determine if there was anything in there that would be pertinent in modeling the shoe or recreating a picture of the shoe for comparison purposes, that's why you skimmed his deposition, right?

# 90 A:

That's correct.

# 91 Q:

Okay. And when you conducted your similar photograph, you did it outside, didn't you?

# 92 A:

No.

# 93 Q:

When you took that photograph, Mr. Bodziak, did you -- you took the camera 75 feet away?

# 94 A:

No, I did not.

# 95 Q:

You put the camera five feet in height?

# 96 A:

No, I did not.

# 97 Q:

You took it inside, correct?

# 98 A:

That's correct.

# 99 Q:

All right. And you put reflective paper underneath the shoe, right?

# 100 A:

That's correct.

# 101 Q:

And you put artificial lighting around the shoe, right?

# 102 A:

That's correct.

# 103 Q:

Okay. And how high was the camera when you took this similar photograph?

# 104 A:

The camera was close to the ground.

# 105 Q:

How high was it, Mr. Bodziak?

# 106 A:

I didn't measure it. It was approximately two to three inches.

# 107 Q:

Approximately two inches?

# 108 A:

Two to three inches.

# 109 Q:

Did Mr. Medvene -- when you were going to do this similar photograph, to move the height down from five feet to two inches?

# 110 A:

Mr. Medvene had nothing to do with what my decision was on how to take this photograph.

# 111 Q:

And you moved in the distance quite a bit, didn't you?

# 112 A:

Yes.

# 113 Q:

You moved it in from 75 feet to what, 2-1/2?

# 114 A:

It's approximately 2 to 5 feet.

# 115 Q:

Did you reduce the size of the model accordingly?

# 116 A:

I'm not understanding what you're asking, "reduce the size of the model."

# 117 Q:

My question's unclear.

MR. P. BAKER: Let me put up a board. I can take this one down.

# 118 THE COURT:

Oh, all right.

# 119 (Counsel adjusts the exhibit so as not to obstruct the view of the Court.)

# 120 Q:

(BY MR. P. BAKER) So, in Harry Scull's photograph, when you talked to him, he was five feet -- the camera was five feet in height, right?

# 121 A:

Approximately.

# 122 Q:

About 60 inches?

# 123 A:

Approximately.

# 124 Q:

Okay. Here we go.

# 125 (Counsel draws on paper.)

# 126 Q:

60 inches in height, right?

# 127 A:

Yes.

# 128 Q:

Okay. And it was approximately 25 yards away. That would be 900 inches, right?

# 129 A:

I'd have to get a calculator.

# 130 Q:

Okay. 45 yards is 75 feet times 12 is 900, right?

# 131 A:

If you say so.

# 132 Q:

And Mr. Simpson -- Mr. Simpson was smiling in that photograph, right?

# 133 A:

I'd have to look at it. I didn't notice his face.

# 134 Q:

All right. Let's assume he was smiling.

# 135 (Counsel draws stick figure.)

# 136 Q:

He was 6 foot 1; 73 inches, right?

# 137 A:

Yes.

# 138 Q:

Okay. And when you took your similar photo, you put the camera 2 inches in height?

# 139 A:

2 to 3, yes.

# 140 Q:

And you put it approximately 30 inches away, right?

# 141 A:

It was more like -- closer to 5 feet.

# 142 Q:

Well, you testified in your deposition it was 30 inches.

Would you like me to read it?

# 143 A:

I don't believe I did. If I did I was mistaken. I didn't make the measurement. I said just a while ago it was between 2 and 5 feet. I think it was closer to 5.

# 144 Q:

Around 30 inches, correct?

# 145 A:

I think it was closer to 5 feet, but --

# 146 Q:

And you never reduced the model, did you?

# 147 A:

Are you speaking of proportion?

# 148 Q:

Yes.

# 149 A:

No, there was no need to.

# 150 Q:

No need.

You reduced the angle accordingly, correct?

# 151 A:

You're --

# 152 Q:

60 goes into 900 --

# 153 A:

You're asking me if I did something that I would -- I would not normally do. So the answer is no, I did not do those things.

# 154 Q:

And your model was approximately three and a third percent of the distances in the Scull model, correct?

# 155 A:

I haven't calculated that.

It's totally insignificant, in my opinion.

# 156 Q:

Just answer the question, sir.

It was approximately three and a third percent, correct?

# 157 A:

I haven't calculated the percentages.

# 158 Q:

About that?

# 159 A:

I haven't calculated them.

# 160 Q:

Nonetheless, if you had reduced Mr. Simpson to the same scale, three and a third percent, Mr. Simpson would have been 2.43 inches tall, correct?

# 161 A:

Again, I haven't made those calculations.

# 162 Q:

If your similar photo was accurate, Mr. Simpson would have been the size of this pen cap, right?

KEY QUOTE

# 163 A:

I haven't calculated that.

# 164 Q:

All right. Let me put Mr. Simpson right over there.

So if I understand your testimony, sir --

MR. P. BAKER: Got a camera, no batteries, no film. I promise. All the officers checked it.

# 165 Q:

(BY MR. P. BAKER) You put the camera about two inches in height, right?

# 166 A:

Two to three inches, yes.

# 167 Q:

About the size of that laptop?

# 168 A:

Approximately.

# 169 Q:

Okay.

You were about, say, 5 feet away?

This was the 15 -- one of those fancy 15-inch rulers.

# 170 A:

Approximately.

# 171 Q:

So you were right about -- right about here?

# 172 (Indicating to jury box.)

# 173 A:

That's correct.

# 174 Q:

Lo and behold, you could see the bottom of the shoe?

# 175 A:

That's correct.

# 176 Q:

You had reflective paper under this?

# 177 A:

That's right.

# 178 Q:

You had lighting going all around?

# 179 A:

No, there was lighting on top, 45 degree angles.

# 180 Q:

So you could see the bottom of the shoe from that similar photograph?

# 181 A:

Yes.

# 182 Q:

Mr. Bodziak, are you telling this jury when you were asked to do a similar photograph you didn't put a camera outside, 5 feet high and 75 feet away?

# 183 A:

I wasn't asked to make a similar photograph.

KEY QUOTE

# 184 Q:

You weren't asked to make a similar photograph. You tried to make a similar photograph, right?

# 185 A:

No, I did not.

# 186 Q:

Page 45 of your deposition, line 16 through 46, line 2. (Reading.)

Question: So, for instance, you didn't ask him the type of camera, the height the camera was at the time of the photo, was it the time the photo was taken, the angle from which the photograph was taken; you didn't ask him those things?

Answer: Yes, I did ask him those questions for the purpose of taking a similar photograph of the shoe.

Question: You did?

Answer: Yes.

Is that what you testified to?

# 187 A:

Yes, it is.

# 188 Q:

Well, you reduced the size to three and a third percent of the distance from what Mr. Scull told you, right?

# 189 A:

I determined after I --

# 190 Q:

Yes or no?

# 191 A:

I can't answer your question yes or no.

# 192 Q:

The only way you could take a similar photograph was to move the distance in from 75 feet to -- in 72 feet, to about 3 feet, right?

# 193 A:

I didn't make those calculations.

# 194 Q:

And the purpose of showing Item 7 of this exhibit was to show this jury that you could see the detail underneath the Bruno Magli shoe in a similar fashion, right?

# 195 A:

Exactly the purpose of taking it.

# 196 Q:

That's all?

# 197 A:

For demonstrative purposes.

MR. P. BAKER: That's all I had, Mr. Bodziak. Thank you. I have no further questions.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (5)

P. Baker

If your similar photo was accurate, Mr. Simpson would have been the size of this pen cap, right?

Encapsulates Baker's core attack — that Bodziak's scaled-down lab photo bore no meaningful resemblance to the conditions of the Scull photograph, undermining its demonstrative value to the jury.

Bodziak

I wasn't asked to make a similar photograph.

Bodziak contradicts himself; Baker immediately reads back his deposition where he said he gathered Scull's camera specs 'for the purpose of taking a similar photograph of the shoe.'

Bodziak

It's totally insignificant, in my opinion.

Bodziak dismisses the scale discrepancy before Baker cuts him off, revealing his defensiveness about the methodology critique.

Bodziak

I could be your witness. Should, too.

Pointed remark suggesting the evidence should have led Baker to call him — an unusual moment of witness assertiveness at the top of cross.

P. Baker

Got a camera, no batteries, no film. I promise. All the officers checked it.

Baker disarms a potential courtroom objection with humor while using props to physically demonstrate the scale problem to the jury.

Evidence (5)

2211

Board containing enlargements and contact prints derived from Harry Scull's photograph of OJ Simpson, including Bodziak's lab recreation of similar shoe photograph

discussed, methodology challenged

Informal

Harry Scull photograph showing OJ Simpson at a football game, purportedly showing Bruno Magli shoes

discussed as basis for Bodziak's analysis

Informal

Item 86 — Nicole Brown Simpson's dress, alleged to bear a shoe print

referenced in passing; Baker asks if Bodziak testified about it in criminal trial

Informal

Bodziak's deposition, page 45 lines 16–46

read into record to impeach Bodziak's claim he was not trying to make a 'similar photograph'

Informal

Soil impressions from Bundy crime scene requested by Bodziak from LAPD

referenced; Bodziak confirms LAPD never provided them

Notable Exchanges (4)

P. Baker•Bodziak

Baker uses a drawing, a camera prop, a ruler, and stick figures to demonstrate to the jury that Bodziak's lab photo was taken at roughly 3.3% of the scale of the Scull photo — concluding Simpson would have been 2.43 inches tall if proportionally accurate.

strategic

P. Baker•Bodziak

Baker confronts Bodziak about talking to plaintiff's counsel Medvene during a break; Bodziak defends it as normal ('I'm his witness'), then turns it back on Baker: 'You didn't ask me.'

pointed

P. Baker•Bodziak

Baker reads Bodziak's deposition back to him after Bodziak denies he intended to take a 'similar photograph,' catching him in a direct contradiction.

revealing

Medvene•Fujisaki

Medvene protests that the Scull photograph conditions were an area he couldn't get into on direct; Fujisaki rules it proper cross but warns Baker he risks opening the door on contact prints.

procedural

Light Moments (3)

P. Baker

Baker holds up a camera prop during his scale demonstration and reassures the court: 'Got a camera, no batteries, no film. I promise. All the officers checked it.'

P. Baker

Baker draws a stick figure of OJ Simpson on paper as part of his scale argument, then places the pen cap next to it to represent Simpson at Bodziak's scale.

Bodziak

Baker fumbles his math aloud: 'Okay. 45 yards is 75 feet times 12 is 900, right?' — Bodziak deadpans: 'If you say so.'

Credibility Attacks (3)

⚔ Bodziak

prior inconsistent statement

Baker reads Bodziak's deposition (p. 45) where he explicitly said he gathered camera height/distance info 'for the purpose of taking a similar photograph,' contradicting his in-court claim that he was not trying to make a similar photograph.

⚔ Bodziak

methodological impeachment

Baker demonstrates through math and props that Bodziak's 'similar' photograph used a camera 2-3 inches high vs. Scull's 5 feet, at ~3 feet distance vs. 75 feet, without adjusting the shoe model to scale — undermining the scientific basis for using the photo as a comparison tool.

⚔ Bodziak

bias/improper contact

Baker opens cross by establishing Bodziak spoke with plaintiff's counsel Medvene during a break, implying coaching, though Bodziak defends it as normal witness-attorney communication.

Witness Demeanor

(Counsel draws on paper.)

(Counsel draws stick figure.)

(Indicating to jury box.)

(Counsel adjusts the exhibit so as not to obstruct the view of the Court.)

Objections

6 objections (4 sustained, 1 overruled)

Proceeding 8372 • 197 utterances • Plaintiff witness

Civil Trial

Department 103