📄 Redirect examination of Dr. Robin Cotton — Thursday, November 14, 1996
Address:
C:\DEPT103\CIVIL\1996\NOV\14\REDIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-DR-ROB.DOC
TRIAL
▲ Day 15 of 57

Redirect examination of Dr. Robin Cotton

Witness: Dr. Robin Cotton
Examiner: Tom Lambert
Called by: Plaintiff • Date: Thursday, November 14, 1996 • Utterances: 79
Tom Lambert conducts redirect examination of DNA expert Dr. Robin Cotton, rehabilitating her testimony after Blasier's cross-examination. Lambert walks through RFLP band-matching methodology, the medical uses of the same DNA tests, item 29 (the steering wheel), Nicole Brown Simpson's reference sample, and the product rule — with Cotton affirming the scientific validity of her methods throughout.
1 THE COURT:

Anything further?

2 MR. LAMBERT:

Yes, Your Honor.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:

3 Q:

Dr. Cotton, I'd like to touch on a few of the topics that Mr. Blasier talked about on cross-examination.

First he talked a little bit about the fact that he tried to give you this example of making the DNA big enough to go all the way around the world. Remember that example?

4 A:

Yes.

5 Q:

It's not that big?

6 A:

No.

7 Q:

It's much smaller than that?

8 A:

Yes.

9 Q:

And of those -- I think he said 3, is it 3 billion base pairs that are in a DNA strand?

10 A:

6 billion.

11 Q:

6 billion in the DNA strand?

12 A:

In the whole nucleus, all the chromosomes comes to about 6 billion. That again is an estimate.

13 Q:

And of all that DNA, I think you testified previously that some percentage of it is common to all of us?

14 A:

At least 99 percent is common to all of us.

KEY QUOTE
15 Q:

So there would be no reason to test any of that DNA that's common to all of us, would there?

16 A:

No. That wouldn't tell you anything.

17 Q:

So what you test is the portion of the DNA that's unique from person to person?

18 A:

That's right.

19 Q:

So there's no reason to try to test this long strand of DNA, but rather focus your tests on the portion that is unique; is that right?

20 A:

If you're asking a question about identification, then you only want to bother to test those portions that are different from one person to the next.

21 Q:

And therefore in these RFLP probes, you've been talking about where I forget how many base pairs you said you tested in the RFLP probes, each one of them was about how many?

22 A:

Well, the average is going to be maybe 8 or 10,000. But even so, even if you added up all the number of base pairs that you're testing, you're still testing a very small amount, even of the part that's different. But you're testing the part that's giving you an enormous amount of information.

23 Q:

And the tests are described, designed and focus on areas where you can gather a lot of information about identity?

24 A:

Yes.

25 Q:

And these same tests, Doctor, are used medically as well?

26 A:

Yes, they are.

27 Q:

And for what kind of medical reasons are they used?

28 A:

Let me give you two examples that are connected, tissue transplantation, if somebody is looking for a kidney or a liver or a heart. Those tests are looking at particular parts of the DNA and those tests are generally done using PCR and not too different from what we're talking about here.

In cases of bone marrow transplants where you have a person who's ill, they're getting the transplant and you have a donor of the transplant, those people may be related because they're related.

It's harder to tell them apart, even with their DNA and RFLP testing.

It's typically used to monitor bone marrow transplants to show as -- After the transplant, as that patient progresses, you can see whether or not that patient is continuing to make cells that are from the donor, which the -- which is the outcome that you want, or the patient is going back to making cells from themselves, which is not the outcome that you want.

And that's done, that monitoring is done over a period of time and it's done using RFLP testing.

29 Q:

So in this life or death situation of a bone marrow transplant, the same RFLP test that you've been talking about here today are used?

30 A:

Yes.

31 Q:

There was also some discussion, Doctor, about using these narrow windows to make a band match judgment. Do you recall that Mr. Blasier asked some questions about that?

32 A:

Well, yes. He was asking about the window that you use to call a match and your calling it narrow. He was calling it wide. You use a window that's appropriate for your system.

33 Q:

And would you describe how that window system is used?

34 A:

Because the procedure that you're using does not allow you to figure out the exact lengths of the fragment in base pairs, that is, I can't tell you if something is exactly five thousand on a system that's used here. That's -- the system doesn't have that technical capability.

If I see a band and the computer imaging system estimates that it's 5,000, it could be 5,005 or 5,010 or 4,900. And, you know, 80, whatever. So each laboratory has to run multiple samples to assess how much variation you see in as a matter of routine.

And then you use that window, that plus or minus figure of how much variation you see routinely to assess how, whether two fragment size estimates are close enough to be considered a match.

35 Q:

Is that same system used by all DNA scientists that use the RFLP method?

36 A:

Every lab that I know of that's doing an RFLP testing, we're talking about 50 or so labs, all use some kind of window to know whether or not they're going to call a match in the same manner that was described earlier.

37 Q:

And is a match called when you just find a match of one band?

38 A:

Well, you do each band individually. You compare one band with the comparable band and the other sample and you look at those sizes and you decide whether they're close. You have -- occasionally they're identical, but are they close enough to be considered a match? And you do that and then you go on, do all the bands in the pattern.

39 Q:

And for example, in this case, you were looking at bands at five separate genetic locations; isn't that right?

40 A:

Yeah. There are ten bands altogether.

41 Q:

You look at all of those bands before you declared a match?

42 A:

Yes.

43 Q:

And does using this system that you've described, affect in any way, the power of the RFLP system and the results that it generates?

44 A:

No. This is part of the RFLP system. This is -- it's something that you have to understand in order to understand how to do the interpretations. And if you were to ignore this and ask that every band be identical in size, you would be ignoring an enormous amount of data and you wouldn't be doing an appropriate scientific job.

45 Q:

And once again, the same system is a system that's used medically and in diagnostic areas in a lot of other areas of science besides forensic?

46 A:

Yes.

47 Q:

Now, I want to touch briefly again on this question of item number 29 on the steering wheel.

First of all, Doctor, would you find it surprising if there was some DNA that shows up generally on a steering wheel in an automobile?

48 A:

No, I wouldn't be surprised to find that.

49 Q:

Cause someone else could have had a cut on their hand or been perspiring and left DNA at some other time?

50 A:

Sure.

51 Q:

Secondly, is it your testimony that based upon that little Department of Justice DQ Alpha type that he showed you, that although there are various possible combinations, as Blasier pointed out, one scientifically possible combination is a 1.3, 4, which would match Ronald Goldman?

52 A:

Right. Let me be clear.

53 Q:

Okay.

54 A:

There's a 4 that you can see. It's very, very faint. It's below the control dot. That means there may be another allele that you can't see and that other allele that you can't see can be any other allele that that system tests for; could be a 1.1, a 1.2 so and so on and so on. And it could be a 1.3.

55 Q:

Now, let's go to the polymarker test result that you got on Nicole Brown Simpson's reference file.

56 A:

Yes.

57 Q:

You -- on that, there was a faint B that lit up at the GC cite. Am I saying that correct?

58 A:

Yes.

59 Q:

In your professional opinion; is that faint B lighting up the at GC cite a result of contamination?

60 A:

No.

61 Q:

What is it a result of?

62 A:

In my opinion, it's a result of cross-hybridization.

KEY QUOTE
63 Q:

Is that something that you, as a professional DNA scientist see and are familiar with?

64 A:

Yes.

65 Q:

So is it a common kind of occurrence?

66 A:

It's a common occurrence. You can see it in our validation studies. You can see it in work from many other laboratories. You can -- I think it's even mentioned in the manual that comes with the test.

67 Q:

Finally, Mr. Blasier asked you some questions about the application of the product rule to the evidence samples in this case.

In your professional judgment was there anything at all improper about using the product rule in this case?

68 A:

No, there wasn't.

69 Q:

In -- and the sample sizes that the data basis are based upon, are those statistically proper sample sizes?

70 A:

They are.

71 Q:

The amount of nanograms that were found in some of the evidence samples in the case, is it unusual to have a relatively low number of nanograms in a crime scene evidence sample?

72 A:

No, it's -- that's extremely common.

73 Q:

And the PCR test is a test specifically designed to enable you to get results on low nanograms amounts; isn't that right?

74 A:

Right. That's the whole value of that test is that you can use that test on samples where you cannot use any other test.

75 Q:

And the reason that the level of nanograms may be low at a crime scene as opposed to blood taken out of someone's arm is what, Dr. Cotton?

76 A:

I'm assuming that people don't intend to leave bits of themselves.

KEY QUOTE
77 Q:

And the blood found at a crime scene is usually not something that is in a unique laboratory environment?

78 A:

Of course, not.

79 MR. LAMBERT:

No further questions.

RECROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. BLASIER:

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (4)

Dr. Cotton
At least 99 percent is common to all of us.
Establishes why testing focuses on the small unique fraction of DNA, defusing Blasier's implication that the tested regions are arbitrarily narrow.
Dr. Cotton
If you were to ignore this and ask that every band be identical in size, you would be ignoring an enormous amount of data and you wouldn't be doing an appropriate scientific job.
Directly rebuts Blasier's challenge to the band-matching window system, framing strict identity requirements as scientifically improper rather than more rigorous.
Dr. Cotton
I'm assuming that people don't intend to leave bits of themselves.
Wry, memorable explanation for why crime scene DNA samples often contain low nanogram quantities — implicitly undermining any defense suggestion that low yields indicate contamination or unreliability.
Dr. Cotton
In my opinion, it's a result of cross-hybridization.
Offers a benign, scientifically routine explanation for the faint B result in Nicole Brown Simpson's reference sample, countering any contamination inference Blasier raised on cross.

Evidence (2)

Informal
Item 29 — steering wheel DNA sample; Department of Justice DQ Alpha type result showing a 4 allele and a faint possible second allele consistent with a 1.3,4 combination matching Ronald Goldman
discussed
Informal
Nicole Brown Simpson's reference file polymarker test result showing a faint B at the GC locus
discussed

Notable Exchanges (2)

Tom LambertDr. Cotton
Lambert elicits that the same RFLP tests used forensically are also used in bone marrow transplant monitoring — a life-or-death medical context — lending the methodology mainstream scientific legitimacy.
strategic
Tom LambertDr. Cotton
Cotton clarifies the item 29 DQ Alpha result: the visible 4 allele is clear, and the unknown second allele could be any tested allele including 1.3, making a Goldman match scientifically possible — though Cotton is careful to frame it as one possibility among several.
strategic

Light Moments (1)

Dr. Cotton
When asked why crime scene blood samples have low nanogram yields compared to lab-drawn blood, Cotton deadpans that people presumably don't intend to leave pieces of themselves behind.

Objections

None recorded
Proceeding 8268 • 79 utterances • Plaintiff witness
Civil Trial
Department 103
⚖️ Start
📂 NOV 14, 1996 📄 Redirect examination of Dr. Ro
NOV 14, 1996 KRT DvH TD