Redirect examination of Philip Vannatter (part 2)

📄 Redirect examination of Philip Vannatter (part 2) — Monday, December 9, 1996

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C:\DEPT103\CIVIL\1996\DEC\9\REDIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-PHILIP.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 28 of 57

◀ Redirect examination of Philip Vannatter (part 1) Scheduling matters ▶

Witness: Det. Philip Vannatter
Examiner: John Kelly
Called by: Plaintiff • Date: Monday, December 9, 1996 • Utterances: 150

Robert Baker cross-examines Detective Phil Vannatter about his handling of the Bundy crime scene and the circumstances surrounding OJ Simpson's police interview at Parker Center. Baker systematically attacks Vannatter's investigative practices: walking through the blood-soaked crime scene without protective booties, stepping on Nicole's blanket, never going upstairs at Rockingham during the initial search, and admitting he preferred to interview Simpson without his attorneys present.

# 1 (The instrument herein referred to as a Videotape of Mr. Vannatter and others at the crime scene located at 875 South Bundy was marked for identification as Defendants' Exhibit No. 892.)

# 2 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) That's you right there, is it not, sir?

# 3 A:

Yes; it is the back of my head.

Yes.

# 4 Q:

You walked right up the sidewalk where the blood was, did you not, sir?

# 5 A:

Yes.

# 6 Q:

You walked right on the blanket that had been on the body of Nicole Brown Simpson, did you not, sir?

# 7 A:

Yes.

# 8 Q:

And then walked right up the steps, where there was blood, true?

# 9 A:

True.

# 10 Q:

And that crime scene had not been released, and was not released for at least three and a half hours after that, correct?

# 11 A:

I don't know what time it was released.

# 12 Q:

Now then, you went back to Rockingham after you had walked through the crime scene at Bundy, correct?

# 13 A:

Yes.

# 14 Q:

By the way, do you think that was good practice, Detective Vannatter?

# 15 MR. KELLY:

Objection.

# 16 THE COURT:

Sustained as to good practice.

# 17 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) You certainly could have walked up the side of the walkway, could you not, like you came up the first time you were there at 4 o'clock in the morning?

# 18 A:

Yeah, I certainly could.

# 19 Q:

Yeah. Didn't think that was necessary?

# 20 MR. KELLY:

Objection. Argumentative.

# 21 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 22 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) Didn't think that was necessary, did you, sir?

# 23 A:

I don't -- I don't know what I was thinking. I walked in there, according to the videotape.

KEY QUOTE

# 24 Q:

Now, after you left the Bundy crime scene, you went back to Rockingham and you thought that a serious, most probable suspect was O.J. Simpson, correct?

# 25 A:

Yes.

# 26 Q:

And you had full license to search every portion of his -- the interior of his house, did you not?

# 27 A:

Yes.

# 28 Q:

And I take it at that point, you went upstairs, true?

# 29 A:

No.

# 30 Q:

I take it that since you were aware that there was a bloody crime scene, that there were shoe prints at the crime scene, there were blood drops at the crime scene at Bundy, you wanted to do a thorough search of Mr. Simpson's house and any articles of clothing that he had, so you could make a determination as to whether or not he was, in fact, the perpetrator, or had anything to do with those crimes. True?

# 31 A:

True.

# 32 Q:

And you went into his -- his house, and you --

By the way, you had a videographer that afternoon, did you not?

# 33 A:

I didn't.

# 34 Q:

Did you ever call a videographer to that location?

# 35 A:

No, sir, I didn't.

# 36 Q:

Did you ever tell Detective Luper to move a glove out of Mr. Simpson's closet, and put it down in the living room, where it could be photographed by the videographer?

# 37 A:

No, sir I --

# 38 Q:

You sure of that?

# 39 A:

Well, I -- I know -- I don't know -- I don't think I did that.

# 40 Q:

Are you telling this jury that you didn't go and look in Mr. Simpson's closet in his bathroom, in the area of his bedroom, for bloody clothes; is that what you are telling me?

# 41 A:

Me personally?

# 42 Q:

Yes, sir.

# 43 A:

The first time I got to the upstairs of his house was after 5 o'clock that evening.

KEY QUOTE

# 44 Q:

So you came back armed with a search warrant and never went upstairs; that's your testimony, correct?

# 45 A:

That's exactly true.

# 46 Q:

All right.

And you waited there, and knowing that Mr. Simpson was coming to the residence, did you not?

# 47 A:

No, that's not true.

# 48 Q:

Is it your testimony that you didn't know that Mr. Simpson was coming back from Chicago and was coming directly to 360 North Rockingham?

# 49 A:

I didn't know that.

What I knew was, we had attempted to locate him at the Los Angeles International Airport. I was told that he had been missed.

And when I got back to the location, I went into the kitchen area of the house and met with Detective Luper to organize the search, to do a grid-type search of the house.

And while in there, I saw Mr. Simpson in the front yard of the house. That's why I never had a chance to get to the upstairs.

# 50 Q:

And was it -- did you request Mr. Simpson to be handcuffed by Officer Thompson?

# 51 A:

I did not.

# 52 Q:

Why -- Did you think it was necessary that he be handcuffed on his property --

# 53 MR. KELLY:

Objection.

# 54 Q:

-- at noon, June 13, 1994, at 12:30?

# 55 MR. KELLY:

Objection. Argument, though he already testified he did not instruct Mr. Simpson --

# 56 THE COURT:

That wasn't the question. Overruled.

# 57 DET. PHILIP VANNATTER:

Did I think it was necessary that he be handcuffed?

# 58 Q:

Yes, sir.

# 59 A:

I took the handcuffs off. I didn't think it was necessary he had to be handcuffed.

# 60 Q:

Actually, Howard Weitzman asked you to have him removed from the handcuffs, didn't he?

# 61 A:

Asked me if I thought it was necessary, and I said no. And I took them off.

# 62 Q:

And then you had a conversation with Mr. Simpson, did you not?

# 63 A:

Just a brief conversation, yes.

# 64 Q:

And you requested that he go down to Parker Center with you, true?

# 65 A:

True.

# 66 Q:

And at the time that you requested him to go to Parker Center, he had -- Mr. Weitzman and Mr. Taft were there, correct?

# 67 A:

Yes.

# 68 Q:

And was it your decision make -- was it your decision that he didn't ride with his attorneys; he had to ride with you?

# 69 A:

I asked him if he would go with me, and he said yes.

# 70 Q:

Was it your decision that he ride with you, as contrasted to letting him ride with his attorneys?

# 71 A:

I asked Mr. Simpson if he would accompany me to Parker Center.

He said yes, so I took him with me.

# 72 Q:

You put him in the back seat with another detective, did you not?

# 73 A:

I did.

# 74 Q:

And you had a conversation with him on the way down to Parker Center, didn't you?

# 75 A:

Other than to ask him how he was doing and if he was all right, and to explain what we were doing, no.

# 76 Q:

Did you have any conversation of any substance whatsoever with O.J. Simpson before you turned on the tape recorder in Parker Center and recorded his statement?

# 77 A:

I did not.

# 78 Q:

You didn't have any conversation about, for example, where he had been the night before?

# 79 A:

I did not.

# 80 Q:

Have no conversation with him about whether he had gone out to get a burger?

# 81 A:

I did not.

# 82 Q:

And Lange was not in the car with you, was he?

# 83 A:

He was not.

# 84 Q:

And the only two detectives that were in the room when you took a recorded statement from O.J. Simpson was you and Lange. True?

# 85 A:

True.

# 86 Q:

Now, when you took -- strike that.

Mr. Simpson volunteered to go to Parker Center with you, did he not?

# 87 A:

Yes, he did.

# 88 Q:

Mr. Simpson volunteered to get in an airplane and fly back from Chicago to Los Angeles immediately when he was told of his ex-wife's murder?

# 89 A:

You're asking me something I have no knowledge of.

# 90 Q:

You never talked to Detective Phillips to determine whether or not Mr. Simpson had volunteered to get to LA as quick as possible?

# 91 MR. KELLY:

Objection. Calls for hearsay.

# 92 MR. BAKER:

No. I asked if he had a conversation.

# 93 THE COURT:

You may answer yes or no.

# 94 A:

No.

# 95 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) Now, I forgot something.

By the way, when you were walking through the Bundy crime scene there, and going up the walkway, and on the blanket and up the steps, you didn't wear any protective booties, did you?

# 96 A:

No.

# 97 Q:

In fact, you've never worn any booties at any crime scene you've ever been at?

# 98 A:

No.

# 99 Q:

You certainly didn't do it that day, right?

# 100 A:

No.

# 101 Q:

Now, at the -- at Parker Center, you asked to take a statement from Simpson, did you not?

# 102 A:

I asked to take a statement. I asked his attorneys if I could interview him, yes.

# 103 Q:

And they indicated to you that was fine, correct?

# 104 A:

Yes.

# 105 Q:

And you asked O.J. if you could do it, true?

# 106 A:

I explained the circumstances, and he agreed to talk with us.

# 107 Q:

Now, you, as a detective of 23 years and a police officer of 26 and a half, you felt that if Mr. Simpson's attorneys were not in the room, you would have more freedom to interrogate him, would -- did you not?

# 108 MR. KELLY:

Objection. Irrelevant, Your Honor.

# 109 THE COURT:

As to relevance, overruled.

# 110 MR. KELLY:

Argumentative.

# 111 MR. BAKER:

You're own two --

# 112 MR. KELLY:

We didn't get a ruling.

# 113 MR. BAKER:

It's not argumentative.

# 114 THE COURT:

He may answer.

# 115 A:

I would -- I would always like to interview someone without their attorney.

KEY QUOTE

# 116 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) And you told O.J. that you wanted to, you know, you had some things that you wanted to find out about, and you had -- you wanted to discuss with him, and -- and he should give you a statement, correct?

# 117 A:

I -- I told him that we were going to talk to him about the murder of his ex-wife, yes.

# 118 Q:

Did you tell him, Detective Vannatter, that he was the only suspect you had, before you asked him to take the tape-recording?

# 119 A:

No, I did not.

# 120 Q:

Did you tell him that he was the principal suspect, and you felt that he was responsible for the murders, before you turned on the tape recorder?

# 121 A:

No.

# 122 Q:

And did you tell him that he would be best served by having an attorney in the room, before you turned on the tape recorder?

# 123 A:

I read him his constitutional rights. That includes that he had the right to have an attorney present.

# 124 Q:

In fact, you read it to him. And he said, well wait a minute, and you turned off the machine before you flipped it back on, did you not?

# 125 A:

That's not true, no.

# 126 Q:

So as far as -- it's your testimony in this courtroom, under penalty of perjury, that there is no other tape anywhere that exists between you and Mr. Simpson relative to his statement, correct?

# 127 A:

Another tape?

# 128 Q:

Yes, sir.

# 129 A:

Between me and Mr. Simpson?

# 130 Q:

Yes, sir.

# 131 A:

No, there's no other tape.

# 132 Q:

So you turned the tape-recording on. And you were aware, certainly, at that time, that is -- it's now what, 1 o'clock in the afternoon, 1:30, I believe?

# 133 A:

Yeah. I think it was about 1:30.

# 134 Q:

And you are aware, at that time, about the fact that the murders were committed with a knife, correct?

# 135 A:

You know, actually, it looked like blunt-force trauma to me. I looked at the crime scene. I never inspected the bodies up close until the autopsy.

KEY QUOTE

# 136 Q:

Is it your testimony that you never had a conversation with Detective Lange, who documented 875 South Bundy, and took the measurements, and looked closely at the body, that the cause of death was penetration by a sharp object, as contrasted to blunt-force trauma?

# 137 A:

No. He told me there were sharp-instrument wounds.

# 138 Q:

Blunt-force trauma is when somebody is hit with a blunt object, like, for example, a shovel or a hammer or something like that, correct?

# 139 A:

Correct.

# 140 Q:

And -- And that crime scene is totally different in terms of how the victims looked than a crime scene where a person has been murdered with a sharp object such as a knife. You would agree with that?

# 141 A:

Yeah, they could or -- or they could have similar type injuries.

Like I said, I never inspected the bodies closely, but I was told that they had had sharp-instrument injuries.

# 142 Q:

So my question -- to go back to my original question is that, before you turned on the tape recorder, you knew there were two victims, correct?

# 143 A:

Oh, yes.

# 144 Q:

You knew that they were victims of murder from a knife or knives, correct?

# 145 A:

Sharp instrument, yes.

I didn't know it was a knife.

# 146 Q:

You knew that more probably than not, both victims had bled to death, correct?

# 147 A:

Well, I knew that they had what -- what appeared to be fatal wounds from sharp -- or from injuries, yes.

# 148 Q:

Is this a good place, Your Honor?

# 149 THE COURT:

Okay. Ten-minute recess, ladies and gentlemen.

# 150 (Recess.)

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (4)

Phil Vannatter

I would always like to interview someone without their attorney.

Devastating admission that Vannatter deliberately sought to question Simpson outside the presence of counsel — undercuts the voluntariness of the statement.

Phil Vannatter

I don't -- I don't know what I was thinking. I walked in there, according to the videotape.

Vannatter cannot explain why he walked through the crime scene, ceding the argument to the video evidence.

Phil Vannatter

The first time I got to the upstairs of his house was after 5 o'clock that evening.

Contradicts the premise that detectives conducted a thorough warrantless search — Vannatter never went upstairs before the search warrant was obtained.

Phil Vannatter

You know, actually, it looked like blunt-force trauma to me. I looked at the crime scene. I never inspected the bodies up close until the autopsy.

Vannatter initially characterizes stabbing wounds as blunt-force trauma, suggesting either inattention or evasion — Baker then uses this to question the integrity of the pre-interview briefing.

Evidence (3)

Defendants' Exhibit No. 892

Videotape of Vannatter and others at the Bundy crime scene at 875 South Bundy

Marked for identification; used to confront Vannatter with footage of him walking through the crime scene

Informal

Blanket that had been on Nicole Brown Simpson's body at Bundy

Referenced; Vannatter admits walking on it

Informal

Tape-recorded statement of OJ Simpson taken at Parker Center

Discussed; Baker probes the circumstances before the recorder was turned on

Notable Exchanges (4)

Robert Baker•Phil Vannatter

Baker walks Vannatter through each point of crime scene contamination — stepping on the bloody walkway, stepping on Nicole's blanket, walking up blood-covered steps — all without booties, on a scene not yet released.

methodical/devastating

Robert Baker•Phil Vannatter

Baker presses whether Vannatter told Detective Luper to move a glove from Simpson's closet to the living room for the videographer. Vannatter's response is notably uncertain: 'I don't know -- I don't think I did that.'

revealing

Robert Baker•Phil Vannatter

Baker explores the pre-interview conversation in the car and at Parker Center, establishing that Vannatter never told Simpson he was the principal suspect or advised him that having an attorney present would be in his interest — despite reading Miranda rights.

strategic

Robert Baker•Phil Vannatter

Vannatter initially describes the murders as appearing to be blunt-force trauma, then walks it back after Baker presses him, ultimately admitting Lange told him they were sharp-instrument wounds.

revealing

Credibility Attacks (4)

⚔ Phil Vannatter

prior conduct / video evidence

Defendants' Exhibit 892 shows Vannatter walking through the Bundy crime scene without booties — stepping on the blanket and blood — on a scene still active. Baker uses the video to lock in admissions Vannatter cannot deny.

⚔ Phil Vannatter

admission against interest

Vannatter admits he would always prefer to interview a suspect without their attorney present, directly undermining the voluntariness and fairness of Simpson's Parker Center statement.

⚔ Phil Vannatter

prior inconsistent / evasive answer

Vannatter's shifting answer about the glove ('I don't know -- I don't think I did that') reads as evasive rather than a firm denial, inviting the jury to draw an adverse inference.

⚔ Phil Vannatter

impeachment by omission

Despite having a search warrant and a prime suspect, Vannatter never went to the upstairs of Rockingham until after 5 PM, undermining his claim of conducting a thorough investigation.

Objections

6 objections (1 sustained, 5 overruled)

Proceeding 8552 • 150 utterances • Plaintiff witness

Civil Trial

Department 103