Cross-examination of John Gerdes (part 1)

📄 Cross-examination of John Gerdes (part 1) — Thursday, December 12, 1996

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CIVIL\1996\DEC\12\CROSS-EXAMINATION-OF-JOHN-GERD.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 31 of 57

◀ Cross-examination of John Gerdes (part 2) Redirect examination of John Gerdes (part 2) ▶

Witness: Dr. John Gerdes
Examiner: Tom Lambert
Called by: Defense • Date: Thursday, December 12, 1996 • Utterances: 38

Defense attorney Blasier conducts redirect examination of DNA expert Dr. Gerdes, reinforcing the defense theory that key evidence was contaminated or planted. Blasier elicits that substrate controls were suspiciously clean, that Andrea Mazzola's initials are missing from bindles she claimed to have initialed, that bindle 47 had a wet blood transfer despite swatches supposedly being dry, and that the unusually large DNA quantities in the sock stain and back gate sample 117 are consistent with blood originating from a reference tube rather than a crime scene.

# 1 Q:

You testified that those controls were clean. Do you remember that?

# 2 A:

Yes.

# 3 Q:

And when you take a substrate control as demonstrated by Andrea Mazzola in their video of how to do it right, you should have some dirt on the substrate controls. Shouldn't you?

# 4 A:

That would be -- I mean yes. You should.

# 5 Q:

And these controls were almost -- were clean in the sense that there was no evidence of any dirt on them; isn't that true?

# 6 A:

That's what's been recorded. I haven't actually seen them myself, the actual swatches.

# 7 Q:

What's "dry labbing"? What does that term mean?

# 8 A:

Well, dry-labbing, means that you -- say you do an experiment and you don't -- you just fake the results.

KEY QUOTE

# 9 Q:

Incidentally, you're aware of testimony by Andrea Mazzola from August of 1994, that she put her initials on all the bindles that she prepared prior to the time these evidence items from Bundy and Rockingham went to Mr. Yamauchi?

# 10 MR. LAMBERT:

Beyond the scope, Your Honor.

# 11 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 12 A:

Yes. I'm aware of that testimony.

# 13 Q:

(BY MR. BLASIER) And you're aware that her initials don't show up on any of those bindles?

# 14 A:

That's correct.

# 15 Q:

And you're aware that she testified that according to the procedure used by the LAPD lab, the swatches that went into the bindles were dry at the time they went in there, correct?

# 16 A:

Yes.

# 17 Q:

And you're aware that one of the Bundy drops, 47, the bindle that was later examined by Mr. Yamauchi, has a wet blood transfer stain -- several of them, actually?

# 18 A:

I'm aware.

# 19 MR. LAMBERT:

Beyond the scope. Irrelevant. Has nothing to do with this witness's testimony.

# 20 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 21 Q:

(BY MR. BLASIER) When you talk about the reliability of RFLP results, are you making any statements whatsoever with respect to the source of the blood, that produced the spot, that produced RFLP results?

# 22 A:

No.

# 23 MR. LAMBERT:

Objection. Beyond the scope, Your Honor.

# 24 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 25 Q:

(BY MR. BLASIER) In fact, the stain that Mr. Lambert asked you about with what -- with the five-probe patch for Nicole Brown Simpson, that had over 13 hundred nanograms from it, didn't it?

# 26 A:

Yes. There's a lot of DNA in that.

# 27 Q:

And that's more DNA than in all of these other stains combined, isn't it?

# 28 A:

Yes, it is.

# 29 Q:

Now, the back gate, 117, when you testified about the reliability of those RFLP results. You weren't saying anything about the source of the blood that came off the back gate, were you?

# 30 A:

You can't say that. All you can say is the result that you get.

KEY QUOTE

# 31 Q:

And the results that were obtained -- in fact, there was large amount of DNA in 117, as well?

# 32 A:

Yes, there was.

# 33 Q:

Far more than all of the Bundy stains put together, right?

KEY QUOTE

# 34 A:

That's true.

# 35 Q:

And would you agree that the stain on the sock, and the stain from 117, are both consistent with blood coming from a reference tube, it could have?

# 36 A:

In terms of the amounts, yes; that's in that range.

KEY QUOTE

# 37 Q:

Now, let's talk about the Bronco, quickly.

You testified, did you not, that stains 30 and 31 -- that the original tests that were done in June were not reliable because the controls showed extraneous alleles, correct?

# 38 A:

That's correct.

MR. P. BAKER: Looking at board 293.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (4)

Dr. Gerdes

dry-labbing, means that you -- say you do an experiment and you don't -- you just fake the results.

Defense elicits a damning definition to frame the prosecution's lab work as potentially fraudulent.

Dr. Gerdes

In terms of the amounts, yes; that's in that range.

Gerdes agrees that the DNA quantity in both the sock stain and back gate sample 117 is consistent with blood transferred from a reference tube, supporting the planting theory.

Dr. Gerdes

Far more than all of the Bundy stains put together, right? That's true.

Highlights the anomalous DNA quantity in back gate sample 117 compared to all Bundy scene stains — a key pillar of the planting argument.

Dr. Gerdes

You can't say that. All you can say is the result that you get.

Gerdes clarifies that RFLP results speak only to a DNA profile match, not to the origin or integrity of the sample — limiting the evidentiary weight of matches.

Evidence (8)

Informal

Substrate controls described as clean — no visible dirt — suggesting improper collection technique or falsified documentation

discussed

Informal

Bindles prepared by Andrea Mazzola for Bundy and Rockingham evidence — her initials absent despite testimony she had initialed them

discussed

Bundy drop bindle with wet blood transfer stain, despite Mazzola's testimony that swatches were dry when sealed

discussed

Informal

Nicole Brown Simpson five-probe RFLP stain — over 1,300 nanograms of DNA

discussed

117

Back gate blood sample — large DNA quantity, more than all Bundy stains combined; consistent with reference tube blood

discussed

Informal

Sock stain — DNA quantity consistent with blood from a reference tube

discussed

+ 2 more

Notable Exchanges (3)

Blasier•Dr. Gerdes

Blasier walks Gerdes through the DNA quantity anomalies in sample 117 and the sock, getting agreement that these amounts are consistent with reference tube blood rather than a crime scene deposit.

strategic

Blasier•Tom Lambert•Judge Fujisaki

Lambert objects three times on 'beyond the scope' grounds as Blasier probes Mazzola's missing initials and bindle 47's wet transfer — all three overruled by Fujisaki.

heated

Blasier•Dr. Gerdes

Blasier elicits the definition of 'dry labbing' — faking experimental results — in the context of the clean substrate controls.

revealing

Credibility Attacks (2)

⚔ Andrea Mazzola

prior inconsistent statement / physical evidence contradiction

Gerdes confirms that Mazzola testified she initialed all bindles, but her initials do not appear on any of them; also that she testified swatches were dry when sealed, but bindle 47 shows a wet blood transfer stain.

⚔ LAPD crime lab

evidence integrity challenge

The cumulative line of questioning — clean controls, missing initials, wet stains, anomalous DNA quantities — frames lab work as either incompetent or deliberately falsified ('dry labbing').

Objections

3 objections (0 sustained, 3 overruled)

Proceeding 8630 • 38 utterances • Defense witness

Civil Trial

Department 103