Mr. Lange, at the time Fuhrman went over the wall, you did not have any suspicion whatsoever that O.J. Simpson may have committed the murders, correct?
(BY MR. BAKER) Now, in terms of your -- after you said you got into the house, Mr. Simpson's house that is, through the back southeast door -- excuse me.
MR. P. BAKER: That's 116 on the board.
(BY MR. BAKER) You went through the den, through the bar area, into the kitchen area, right?
I don't recall whether he was beside me or right behind me. He was in the same vicinity. I don't exactly recall where everyone was standing or walking.
Is it your testimony, then, that Fuhrman did not come in with Arnelle and the other three detectives?
He might have come in after -- after I did. I don't recall.
My attention wasn't on Fuhrman coming in.
Well, Detective Phillips was engaged in a conversation with Arnelle in the kitchen, correct?
And at that period of time, Kato was still in his residence with Fuhrman; that's your testimony, is it not?
At the time that Phillips was talking to Arnelle in the kitchen, I am not quite clear on, because I do recall Fuhrman entering and Kato entering, and I believe Kato sat down at the bar.
But again, my attention wasn't focused on them.
Were you in the kitchen nook when you don't know whether Fuhrman and Kato were in his guest house or the bar area?
I believe that they were in Kato's house when we entered.
Now, again, my attention wasn't on them once we'd entered, so I don't know.
And you then went directly through the bar/den area, dining room, and into the kitchen nook area, correct?
You remained in the kitchen nook area until sometime later, when Fuhrman came and got you, true?
And so you don't know what happened, whether Fuhrman even entered the house; isn't that correct?
No. My question was: You don't even know, after you entered the house from the southeast entrance, whether Fuhrman came into the house, 'cause you didn't see it; isn't that correct?
I thought you just testified that you didn't see him from the time you were in the kitchen nook until he came back and got you, and you wandered around the garage to the area where Fuhrman says he found the glove?
So you didn't stay in the kitchen nook the entire time after you entered the house. True or untrue?
I was in that area. I walked down the hall by the washer and dryer to look at the housemaid's room.
Well, you can't see the bar or the den area from the area where the washer and dryer is, can you?
And you can't see from the kitchen nook area where the bar is, where you say Kato and Vannatter was, can you?
If you stepped into the dining room, you could, but you can't see it from the kitchen area, can you, sir?
I haven't been in that house for a couple of years.
It's my recollection that I became aware that they, in fact, were back in the bar area. Now, I don't -- in fact, I can't give you exactly where I was standing. And this has to do with not just what I see, but what I hear.
Well, since you were in the home of Mr. Simpson on June 13, 1994, you testified about it about four, five times, have you not?
(BY MR. BAKER) You have also gone on multiple -- multiple TV shows talking about your experiences, and trying to hype a book deal over your experiences with Mr. Simpson, have you not?
Well, you didn't until relatively recently, but you've been hyping it for about two years, trying to get a book deal?
Okay.
In any event, Mr. Lange, you went into the kitchen nook area. Did you or did you not stay in that area the entire time until Fuhrman came and got you to point out where he purportedly found the glove?
So you never went back into the dining room area, never went back into the bar/den area, correct?
I -- I might have walked toward that area. Again, I can't specifically recall every place I went, and everything I did that day.
Well, you have had to recall this in conversations you had with Bill Hodgman and Marcia Clark when they asked you to recall and set forth in detail what you did at Mr. Simpson's house on June 13, 1994, isn't that true?
No, I don't recall them at all asking me specifically where I was at every moment that I was in that house.
No, not about whether I walked in the kitchen and out of the kitchen, no, I don't recall any of that.
That was the first thing that I was concerned with, would be a struggle -- sign of struggle.
Maybe you didn't understand the question I just asked you. Maybe you can answer it yes or no.
Did you or did you not look for blood in the area of the house that you were in before Mark Fuhrman ever came and got you to look for this purported glove he found?
So you went through the house, stayed in the kitchen nook area, went to the maid's area, were there for, what, a half-hour?
During that period of time, it's your testimony that Phillips was in a conversation with Arnelle Simpson, correct?
And he was contacting Mr. Simpson's secretary, Kathy Randa, to find out where Mr. Simpson was, and you stayed in the kitchen area during that period of time, right?
Actually I believe Arnelle made the call and spoke with her initially, and I was in the area.
And you didn't know -- well, strike that.
Had you heard before you went in the kitchen nook area about any representation by Kato Kaelin of thumps or noises that he said he had heard the evening before?
Now, during the period of time that you were with Fuhrman in the morning of the 13th at Rockingham, did he have his coat on or off?
(BY MR. BAKER) It's your recollection you had the coat -- he had a coat off the entire time?
I don't recall him having it on for -- whether he went to put it on, I don't know, I just don't recall him having a coat on.
Now, did Fuhrman tell you that he was going to leave the house and go investigate outdoors before he left the interior of the residence?
(BY MR. BAKER) Well, I take it that when there's four of you there, there's two lead detectives, you and Vannatter, that you are in charge of that scene as well, correct?
And that these -- Phillips you had right in front of you and he was talking to Arnelle, correct?
You knew Fuhrman was out in the bar, you said you saw him out in the bar from your vantage point in the kitchen area, right?
Because I left him with Kato, as we walked in, for awhile. Kato -- my recollection is that Kato entered sometime after that. It's just what I recall.
Well, Kato entered sometime after that. Do you have a recollection of Fuhrman entering -- do you have a recollection, sir, of seeing Fuhrman enter the residence?
Do you have a recollection as you sit her now, of Fuhrman ever being in the Simpson residence after you knocked -- after he rapped on Kato's door and before he came and got you and others to look at the glove that he says he found on the south side of Mr. Simpson's property?
I don't recall if he was in there or not.
Again, my attention was not focused on Mr. Fuhrman's whereabouts.
Now, at any time, were you asked by Fuhrman or anybody else to provide a backup to investigate the grounds of Mr. Simpson's house?
(BY MR. BAKER) Well, if there is a concern, sir, of dangerous or unlawful activity on the grounds, I take it that one police officer wouldn't examine the grounds when there are four there without the assistance of others being in his or her company; would you agree with that?
(BY MR. BAKER) Maybe you didn't understand the question.
If there is a suspicion of dangerous activity, thumps are being heard, nobody knows what they are, and there is possible danger around the grounds of Mr. Simpson's estate or any other place, you certainly wouldn't have a police officer go into that area without being accompanied by another police officer, would you?
Well, it depends on what the situation is, what the officer's state of mind is.
Again, we weren't concerned with suspects at this time.
Well, you don't know what Mr. Fuhrman was concerned with because you don't know what information he heard from Kato Kaelin about noises; isn't that true?
If in fact there's concern that there have been thumps on the wall and there are unexplained noises and this is a place where there is a concern about it may be an extension of a crime scene at 875 South Bundy over here at 360 North Rockingham, police regulations would require at least two officers to investigate the grounds and have their weapons drawn; isn't that true, sir?
The thumps were many hours earlier. And we had no fear of suspects being at the location.
We entered because we feared that there may be victims at that location, and for no other reason.
(BY MR. BAKER) You have no idea on June 13 when the thumps were 'cause you never even heard about them; isn't that true?
-- comment on what Detective Fuhrman felt at the time, that was it, because I didn't see it, I didn't hear what went on.
You don't know what Detective Fuhrman felt at the time, you don't know if he was leaving the vicinity of every police officer, and every person at that house to plant a glove, do you?
(BY MR. BAKER) Do you know if Detective Fuhrman was leaving the interior of the residence, and leaving Kato Kaelin that he interrogated out in Kato's room so he would be alone by himself and have the opportunity to plant a glove?
(BY MR. BAKER) So as far as you were aware, Fuhrman was out of any sight that you had from approximately 5:40 to about 6:15, correct?
No, I can't say that.
Again, I didn't specifically keep a record of every movement of Mr. Fuhrman. I recall seeing him from time to time. I can't give you an accounting of what he did every minute he was there.
And you understand that it's your job while you sit on the witness stand, to answer questions, not to argue the case, do you not, sir?
(BY MR. BAKER) So can you listen, be kind enough to listen to my questions, and attempt to answer my questions, sir.
(BY MR. BAKER) The question is Fuhrman was out of your vision from 5:40 to 6:15, yes or no?
Again, I can't -- I don't know. He was in and out of my vision. I can't tell you where he was every moment. That's my answer.
Objection. Objection, question has been asked and answered. Mr. Baker is misstating the answer.
I do not know where Mr. Fuhrman was all the time he was there. I was focused on other things.
KEY QUOTE(BY MR. BAKER) Let's go through in a minute here.
You arrived at about 5:06 after leaving Bundy around 5, correct?
And you were outside the Rockingham property for approximately 30 minutes before you allowed Fuhrman to go over the wall, right?
Fuhrman goes over the wall, you go to the front of the house, you ring the doorbell, you go around up to the north side of the house, and you go to the area, and you rapped on the glass doors that are at the back of Mr. Simpson's house, which would be the east, really, correct?
I don't know if -- recall rapping on them. I may have. I do recall looking in the rear doors.
Then you go down, Fuhrman is rapping on Kaelin's door, says somebody's in there. Kaelin comes to the door, there's words of identification exchanged, you and Phillips at least walk down to Arnelle's room, right?
Arnelle gets dressed and -- and I guess she looked for a key, did she not? Went back -- I think that she had to go back and get a key, right?
And then it's your testimony that after she may have gone back, gotten a key, you all, that is, at least you, Phillips and Arnelle, went up the stairs and in the southeast door with the key that Arnelle Simpson got, right?
From the time we actually walked from Arnelle's to the rear door, probably took less than a minute.
Well, I was talking about, sir, and I thought that you understood, was over the wall to going in the house about 10 minutes?
Apparently, I did not understand. I did not understand.
I think it was probably a little more than that.
You're trying to pin me down on minutes, and I'm kind of uncomfortable with that because we didn't log in everything we did every minute that we did it. I mean we had other things on our mind. I just can't give you an accurate accounting of that time.
It's documented -- In fact, the record shows that you never left 875 South Bundy; isn't that true?
The log at Bundy indicates you never left.
Didn't you ever look at that before you wrote the follow-up report?
Now, by 5:45 you're in the house, you walk through the back, and the next thing you see of Fuhrman is when he walks into the kitchen nook at about 6:15, right?
I don't recall. I may have seen him earlier. Again, I wasn't focused on Fuhrman.
I do recall seeing him in the nook area, yes.
And -- And at that point in time, Fuhrman comes to you with a revelation and he says, I want you to follow me, correct?
No. I think Phillips came up to me and mentioned that Fuhrman had something he wanted to show me.
Had Phillips already been out there when you were confronted with Fuhrman saying he wanted to see the -- wanted you to go to the south side of the house?
My recollection is that Phillips approached me and said that Fuhrman had found something on a back walkway and that he was going to take me out and show it to me.
MR. P. BAKER: Number on the "Post-It" on the front.
(BY MR. BAKER) Now, 1174 is an aerial view of 875 South Bundy or the block of 875 South Bundy.
It's also an aerial view of Mr. Simpson's property, is it not?
And all of this is the shrubbery that is adjacent to the south side of Mr. Simpson's property and along that Cyclone fence, right?
Yes.
Now, as I understand it, you had -- before you were informed of this amazing find of evidence, you'd already been to Bundy and you'd seen a glove, right?
And I take it as a detective, you have 20 plus years, you looked for a blood trail, did you not?
You didn't look to see if there was any blood on the ground, you didn't look to see if there was any blood or any biological matter on any leaves, you didn't look to see any of that, did you?
Maybe you didn't understand the question. I didn't ask your concerns.
I asked if you looked, as a detective of 20 years, on a piece of evidence that is found that may match a piece of evidence in a crime scene where a double homicide occurred, you didn't even look to see if there was blood around it, did you?
You didn't look at anything else, the shrubbery, the concrete, whether there was insect activity there, whether there was dirt on the glove, you looked at none of that?
And so this glove that was told to you had blood on it that may match a glove a couple of miles away at a house where a double murder had occurred of the estranged ex-wife of the owner of this house, it didn't occur to you to look at the shrubbery, the glove, to see if there was insect activity, to see if there was dirt, wasn't a concern of yours, you just looked, turned, and went back and talked to your partner, Vannatter, right?
I saw nothing but what to me appeared to be a glove.
As far as the rest of your question goes, that crime scene was not my concern at that time.
(BY MR. BAKER) Were you told before you went out to the south side of Mr. Simpson's property that there was a glove with blood on it?
Did -- As I understand it then, Phillips had already told you that there was a glove out there?
He was the one that told you that?
No. I believe what Phillips stated was that Fuhrman wants to show you something. I don't even recall him saying the glove.
After you saw the glove, you walked back to the front of the location where you met your partner, Detective Vannatter, right?
And by the time you talked to Vannatter, he'd already sent Fuhrman and Phillips back to 875 South Bundy, right?
And you then left 875 South -- or strike that.
You were -- heard Mark Fuhrman testify in the criminal trial that the glove was moist, sticky and wet, did you not?
(BY MR. BAKER) You didn't -- you didn't see anything on the glove that looked moist, sticky or wet when you were out there viewing the glove? You turned your flashlight on it, didn't you?
No. It was still fairly dark. It was beginning to get light. I could see the outline of what appeared to me to be a glove. I did not want to approach it. I didn't approach it. I was only there a matter of seconds, and I returned to the front.
I don't recall that -- whether I shined the light on it or not. It seems to me it was beginning to get light.
Were you the only detective that didn't see evidence of blood that was moist, wet and sticky in your conversations subsequent to the time --
(BY MR. BAKER) All right.
You had conversations with the other detectives about this glove later on the 13th, did you not?
That was a pretty busy day. The glove may have been alluded to. I don't recall any specific mention about the glove.
The glove was picked up by Fung and taken back to 875 South Bundy, to the crime scene, when you were there, isn't that true?
Is it your testimony that you, who were in charge of 875 South Bundy, that Dennis Fung didn't bring the glove that was found at Rockingham back to 875 South Bundy and take it up to the area where the glove had been moved at 875 South Bundy?
I don't recall him doing that. I did observe that glove in the truck though, because I asked to see it.
I don't know what time. I didn't log what time it was. It was sometime probably within 10 or 15 minutes after Fung arrived at the crime scene.
Now, if Dennis Fung testified that it was at your request that he brought the glove from Rockingham to 875 South Bundy, he would be misrepresenting the truth, correct?
(BY MR. BAKER) You told Dennis Fung to bring the Rockingham glove to 875 South Bundy, didn't you?
No.
He brought it there as part of his investigation. He completed his work at Rockingham and brought the glove, as well as other evidence, to 875 South Bundy. When he arrived I asked if I could see the glove. I told him I wanted to see the glove, to get a look at it --
There is a difference, you would agree, between looking at the glove in the criminalist truck, taking the glove out of the criminalist's truck, taking it into the area where the glove was located at 875 South Bundy, correct?
And it's your testimony, so we have it perfectly clear, that you never requested Fung to take the glove found -- located by Fuhrman at Rockingham, out of the criminalist truck while it was at 875 South Bundy, and walk it to the area and -- and put it near or next to the glove that was still on the ground at 875 South Bundy?
I would never do that.
And I told Fung that I wanted to see the glove. It may -- he may have misinterpreted.
KEY QUOTEAnd your testimony is that you, being the lead detective in charge of 875 South Bundy, never saw Fung with that glove in the crime scene area? And I'm talking about close to the closed-in area and by the gate of 875 South Bundy, correct?
I don't recall him at all having that glove there.
Again, my testimony is the same. I recall seeing the glove in the criminalist truck only.
And did you see a moist, wet, tacky glove on the -- at the time -- well, strike that.
You didn't see it until after, what, at noon or thereafter?
It was sometime after Fung showed up. It may have been 15, 30 minutes. I don't recall exactly when it was. Sometime, obviously, after Fung had been there for a bit.
And the earliest Fung and Mazzola ever got to 875 South Bundy was 10:10 in the morning, right?
And I take it that the first thing they did is have you into the criminalist truck and show you the glove, correct?
So you -- And you left 875 South Bundy to go down and interrogate my client sometime around noon, true?
So sometime between 10:10 and 12:30, it's your testimony you went into the criminalist truck and looked at the glove in the truck, right?
I didn't go into the truck. The rear was opened, I peered in at the glove in the rear of the truck. I didn't enter the truck.
And the rear door of the truck was open, and you walked up to the rear door of the truck, right?
No. We walked up there together, he unlocked the door, opened the door and showed me the glove.
And when he showed you the glove, could you see blood on it, what you perceived to be blood?
I don't recall. I don't recall. I just recall viewing the glove. I was more interested in the inside. I was more interested in the ribbing of the glove, to see if in fact it matched the one that we had at the crime scene. I wasn't looking for blood.
Now, there is, as I understand it from the pictures that we've seen, blood all over the crime scene area at 875 South Bundy; you would agree with that?
And this glove was purportedly found at Rockingham, and you weren't interested in whether or not there was blood on it?
Not at that time. I was interested in doing my job at the Bundy crime scene. That piece of evidence had already been collected and was going to be examined.
Now, if -- if Fung had taken the glove and taken it into the crime scene, you would have been upset with that and have reprimanded Fung for moving the glove from the criminalist truck into the crime scene 'cause you didn't want it in the crime scene, did you?
(BY MR. BAKER) You did not want the Rockingham glove in the crime scene for fear of contamination, isn't that true?
I would certainly have a fear of contamination if one was to bring evidence from another crime scene, yes.
I do not know where Mr. Fuhrman was all the time he was there. I was focused on other things.
Fuhrman would have had to come through the kitchen area.
I would never do that.
Obviously, I didn't look because it was not a concern.
It's probably a conservative estimate.